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  • Sharayna
    Sharayna closed this thread because:
    Comments have been restored in an archived state!
    00:20, February 7, 2020

    There has been a new update of 2020, a part of the update it is that comments have been removed. Many people disagree with this action and have asked for a vote so I decided to make one. What do you think? Should comments return? Or should articles stay without them? Use Support (If you'd like to have them back) or Oppose (if you'd like to stay without them) for your answers.

    Symbol support vote Support - 35

    Symbol oppose vote Oppose - 1

    Symbol neutral vote Neutral - 7

    Note: I'm going to let this vote go over a week and up to a month even if we have a fair vote because it is a bigger vote than just an image vote or anything else.

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    • I change my vote to Symbol neutral vote Neutral

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    • The decision is pretty final so...

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    • Symbol strong support vote Strongly support

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    • Pictogram voting comment Comment Can we get a more professional vote? You don't clearly state state the subject matter so without context it makes no sense and you don't clearly state if Support is to put comments back or keep them off and vice versa. Also I'm mostly sure voting on your own thread is against the rules.
      EDIT: OP has been updated since this comment.

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    • No, I thought that myself until Sharayna told me it wasn't.

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    • Pretty sure that if this was a choice then they would've let us vote on it in the first place

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    • Symbol strong support vote Strongly support.

      Those new update make me quit on this wiki. No offense. We want the old comment back!

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    • Symbol support vote Support it's obviously pointless, but I'm bored

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    • lol

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    • Look, I've seen the mods trying to explain the positives, and I will say, I'm willing to give it a try. However, I feel like this vote still should've happened before any changes were made. The mods should've layed out what was going to happen to the comments, why they wanted to do such, alternatives to using comments, why they're superior, etc, before they up and went and got rid of comments altogether, allowing the community that uses the wiki to add input. This is a massive shock and a massive change, so naturally, there's gonna be opposition. I feel as if there was a better way to do this that would've led to less, not none at all, but less criticism.

      I think I understand where both sides are coming from. The mods are doing their best as humans to keep this wiki as community run as possible, while also trying to combat vandalism and hate speech. And I commend them for that, they're doing an amazing job, with little incentive, and I thank them massively for all they do. On the other hand, users feel that comments were a quick and easy way to just drop a thought, right there, without having to go to a completely different page, where as (they feel) that forum and discussion threads are for more... interavtive posts. They feel they're meant for back and forth, or for, you know, discussion, conversations, no matter how minor. Regardless of what each is actually meant for, that's what comment supporters feel they're for. I think. Like I said, I'm not quite sure, and I'm probably massively generalizing here.

      All in all, I'm willing to give it a try, I won't be using discord (though I do have it), cause it feels very incoventient to have to switch to a completely different app, just to say something like "I really like Lapis' new look," something, by the way, I feel would be completely unnecessary to put in a discussion thread, as it's a small, quick, one off opinion, that doesn't (intentionally) spark much conversation. I'm pretty Symbol neutral vote Neutral perhaps even Symbol partial support vote Weak support (assuming support means you want coments back), as most of what I do on here is look through the comments for render requests, or suggestions, or just post renders there. Granted, I know you can do that via other means (like forum and discussion threads), but it just feels more convenient via the comments. I dunno, maybe I'm weird.

      Sorry for the long semi-rant. I have a lot of thoughts about this that I've been wanting to get out. lol.

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    • KameronDoughty wrote:maybe I'm weird.

      Sorry for the long semi-rant. I have a lot of thoughts about this that I've been wanting to get out. lol.

      It's fine, I like long rants even if they're about me! (as long as it's nothing rude) It's good to express your opinions so that others could possibly improve and if they don't, then that's their opinion.

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    • Symbol oppose vote comments means I'M OUT

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    • Okay, now that you've updated the OP to be more clear I will vote: [[REDACTED]]

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    • Thank you for the advice! ^U^

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    • Symbol strong support vote Strongly support

      The comments were memories, and it was nice to look back at them. Also, whilst discussions are good, the comments were great for giving opinions on the page.

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    • Support Strongly support I loved the comments. We could share theories and cool pictures on comments.

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    • Symbol strong support vote Strongly support The comments were fun to read and it was a blast to share theories and ideas on there. BRING BACK THE COMMENTS!

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    • I might get a warning for this but Symbol support vote Support

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    • Symbol neutral vote Neutral 

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    • Symbol support vote Support

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    • Symbol strong support vote Strong support

      Comments were a big appeal of the wiki for me. Now that they’re gone, I don’t want to come on here as much as I did. Are a few bad apples really going to be the cause of wiki users drifting away?

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    • No means no. Get over with it.

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    • Let them have hope, I'm sure the staff still cares enough to reconsider

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    • StereoTitan877 wrote: No means no. Get over with it.

      We’re allowed to not like the new update. We’re allowed to share our opinions. Plus, apparently the decision might not be final, so who knows what could happen?

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    • Symbol support vote Support

      In all my years here, I never saw any problem with the comment section. It serves a good purpose for anyone who wants to talk about a character/episode/object in particular. Of course we also have threads, but they aren't used as much as the comment section. So, if you ask me, the comments should return.

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    • Theweathercat2002
      Theweathercat2002 removed this reply because:
      h
      02:11, January 3, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • Symbol support vote Support

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    • Symbol support vote Support

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    • Symbol support vote Support

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    • DetectiveAquamarine wrote:

      StereoTitan877 wrote: No means no. Get over with it.

      We’re allowed to not like the new update. We’re allowed to share our opinions. Plus, apparently the decision might not be final, so who knows what could happen?

      It's final, they already said it, both on Discord and on wiki

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    • Oh yeah.. Let's just forget about this? 

      "Feel free. We're not offended. Do note, though, that wiki staff reserve the right to void any vote or voting option for any reason at any time (Voting Policy). It's a community-based wiki, but that doesn't mean it's equivalent to a democracy or anarchist society. If the majority were to support allowing vandalism on the wiki, the staff will simply void that vote.

      Of course, this doesn't predict whether a vote on bringing article comments back will be void. It just says that staff retain the right to void it for any reason at any time. I personally recommend waiting to see what it's like without the comments before making hasty judgments."

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    • No one will be warned for voicing their opinion or supporting the return of comments, but I cannot promise that this vote will pass. It's ultimately up to the decision of all the staff since it's regarding user safety.

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    • TheNinjaOnTheTop
      TheNinjaOnTheTop removed this reply because:
      Posted before Shar added her comment
      10:28, January 3, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • cant comments just be locked on certain pages? i mean i know what two pages we're mainly talking about

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    • also side note i dont get what the point of wikis arranged like this is, its barely even a community (i've seen them before, and not only are they completely devoid of any form of community, but i've found pages, even for main characters, seasons behind on information)

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    • Pictogram voting comment Comment @ SaltyPearl7152

      I have answered this question many times on the announcement thread, but many pages would have comments locked due to similar controversy. My predicted examples include:

      • Stevonnie (Since Jungle Moon, debate on they/them status, along with nonbinary status)
      • Rainbow 2.0 (Angry pronoun debate after Change Your Mind)
      • Snowflake Obsidian (Angry pronoun debate after Guidance)
      • Zuke (Anger over "Lapidot" after Beta)
      • Steven Universe ("He has neck" spam after the movie)

      I can't remember much else and know nothing before 2016. The pages here are pretty significant, though, especially to lock out of conversation. Since such issues continue even to new characters, the latest example being Shep, the article comments may as well be disabled and users redirected to other forms of communication instead (which have more features and support anyway).

      SaltyPearl7152 wrote: also side note i dont get what the point of wikis arranged like this is, its barely even a community (i've seen them before, and not only are they completely devoid of any form of community, but i've found pages, even for main characters, seasons behind on information)

      The wiki can be edited by anyone to freely add this information if it's allegedly missing. This will be my only comment on this thread.

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    • maybe it'll change for the better this year, but from my experiences, no they cannot, because i can't even count on my hands the amount of locked pages

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    • 1. Symbol strong support vote Strongly support


      2. chances are they're going through with this trash decision anyway, so chances are i'm not gonna be here anymore, sure maybe i'll occasionally change emerald's gem type from beryl back to emerald or re-add the square cut amethyst gemstone or remove "stone" from the caste system page, but that's about it, so for anyone who wants to talk to me feel free to contact me personally but chances are i won't be here anymore, since its essentially pointless now

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    • HotPinkMegaStar
      HotPinkMegaStar removed this reply because:
      New reply
      12:24, January 3, 2020
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    • HotPinkMegaStar wrote:
      Template:Strongly support

      put support|strongly but with the bracket things

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    • HotPinkMegaStar
      HotPinkMegaStar removed this reply because:
      New reply
      12:26, January 3, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • that includes the line thingy and no spaces

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    • SaltyPearl7152 wrote:
      that includes the line thingy and no spaces

      thanks for the tip

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    • Symbol strong support vote Strongly support

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    • Symbol strong support vote Strongly support

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    • Symbol support vote Support

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    • HotPinkMegaStar wrote:
      SaltyPearl7152 wrote:
      that includes the line thingy and no spaces
      thanks for the tip

      no problem, you're welcome

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    • Symbol support vote Support

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    • Symbol support vote Support While I do understand why the decidion was made (for example Shep's page's comment section was just a toxic wasteland), I do believe what the comments need is better moderation, not removal. Comments were useful for people to report problems they noticed with the page and weren't sure how to edit, expressing opinions on the page's subject, sharing renders and fanart, and so on. On a personal note, reading the comments was my primary reason to even go on the wiki sometimes several times a day. If that's gone then I feel I have no more purpose here.

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    • Agarania wrote: Symbol support vote Support While I do understand why the decidion was made (for example Shep's page's comment section was just a toxic wasteland), I do believe what the comments need is better moderation, not removal. Comments were useful for people to report problems they noticed with the page and weren't sure how to edit, expressing opinions on the page's subject, sharing renders and fanart, and so on. On a personal note, reading the comments was my primary reason to even go on the wiki sometimes several times a day. If that's gone then I feel I have no more purpose here.

      Pictogram voting comment Comment My exact thoughts.

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    • SaltyPearl7152 wrote:

      maybe i'll occasionally change emerald's gem type from beryl back to emerald or re-add the square cut amethyst gemstone or remove "stone" from the caste system page

      if you vanish completely the amethyst is free game lol

      as for my thoughts:

      Symbol support vote Support i do notice a bit of theme about some of those problematic pages(mainly discussions on gender) i can understand confusion about gender when you are used to a more simple way of thinking about it. i can see why people would be confused about these things(though the amount of confusion can be a bit astonishing) confusion/ignorance like this is what will happen with a show like steven universe that uses themes like this. i can see why someone wouldnt want these discussions around but removing all of comments seems unnecessary to me.

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    • Pictogram voting comment Comment As Agarania has said the comments are in need of better moderation. Could I suggest one of the bureaucrats open a thread for new staff, specifically more Disscussion Moderators?

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    • Ninja72
      Ninja72 removed this reply because:
      07:33, January 5, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • Symbol oppose vote Oppose - I find it really hard to use comments (as opposed to talk pages, etc.) to discuss improvements to articles so I've held off on editing very much in ways that would require consensus at all. (I've still edited, yes, but not usually in ways that require discussion with others about the change, because comments operate in such a way that it almost never feels like I can discuss improvements to articles (the core "thing" of the wiki) in the way that I would on, say, a Wikipedia talk page, because they also hold people just rambling their feelings on the topic, which makes it hard to find/follow/keep-abreast-of anything discussing article changes.)

      Article comment threads also can't be "watched" for this purpose, like people can watch talk pages or follow forum threads, etc. which doubly makes them bad for using for that kind of purpose of trying to discuss improvements to the article. (Someone could counterargue "you could start a forum thread if it's that important to pay attention to", I guess, but separating discussion of the article from the location of the article is off-putting to me.)

      (Tangential comment) Further, the arguments I tend to see in favor of restoring comments tend to either a) not seem to realize there are places where the purposes comments fulfilled for them still exist (i.e. talk pages, forums, other users' walls, their own walls, blogs, etc.) or b) seem to think the comments are the thing this wiki is for or something. (I feel like this might be giving off a vibe of "comments attract the wrong kind of person" so I want to clarify that that's not what I mean, if it comes across that way.)

      ...Maybe I'm just rambling but these are my feelings. (And if it helps you put my perspective in context, it's because I gained my Mediawiki skill through editing Wikipedia, a place where fun subject discussion and article improvements don't share space, in some ways because of reasons like these. It probably also bolsters my opinion that a wiki might seem more professional/etc. without comments enabled.)

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    • Symbol support vote Support

      comments were super useful, especially on character discussions because you could find discussion, renders, art, etc of just one character instead of having to search the forums (and the search function sucks and doesnt even work correctly most of the time lol). it was organized and convenient. comments are a basic feature of all wikis, and should definitely return. 

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    • AchiToki wrote: Symbol support vote Support

      comments were super useful, especially on character discussions because you could find discussion, renders, art, etc of just one character instead of having to search the forums (and the search function sucks and doesnt even work correctly most of the time lol). it was organized and convenient. comments are a basic feature of all wikis, and should definitely return. 

      Pictogram voting comment Comment

      1. You can also find relevant discussions on forums at the bottom of character pages (where article comments were), especially with the "see more discussions" buttom. If a topic doesn't exist for the character, that is because someone didn't use the topic categorisation system (addressed in the announcement thread). Much like how it was required for people to post article comments onto relevant pages, people are also encouraged to categorise their forum posts appropriately. It would be the user's fault if their thread doesn't get noticed much due to lacking categorisation.

      2. The search function isn't the most convenient, yes. As noted on Help:Forum, forum content cannot be searched for some reason, which I personally think is bad practice. However, this flaw applies to article comments as well, to which there is no option for. Because of this, you would be scrolling through the forums in the same way as one scrolls through the article comments. Furthermore, the search functionality isn't too different except for two key differences, all of which give forums an advantage:

      • The forum offers options that can aid one's search for threads, as shown here. Article comments do not offer this feature.
      • If we want to be extreme, forums thread content can be searched on Google while article comments aren't indexed, thus aren't listed, by Google searches (tested on another popular wiki). The same goes for the upcoming replacement Discussions content, though according to my testing, Google only detects text coming from the starting thread post and not the replies, possibly only for now.

      In conclusion, forum content can be searched for better than article comment content, showcasing another advantage that the former has over the latter.

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    • Pictogram voting comment Comment I've already voted, but I thought I'd just say something.

      Whilst I'm aware of the forums, I think they are better suited for full discussions. However, the comments are better suited for people who want to make short one-off comments. E.g. posting an opinion, a png or a joke (as long as it's inoffensive). I mean, if the comments stay delete, we will have floods of forums that we need to keep going backwards and forwards on.

      I understand there are trolls who abuse the comments sections, but it we're getting rid of the comments because of that, should we ban texting to tackle cyberbullying? After all, why send a text when you can just phone the person up? Right?

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    • Symbol support vote Support with the mods reserving the right to lock comments on individual pages that are especially vulnerable.

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    • Support

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    • Wait, how do I make the support thing green like the others?

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    • Memin' Universe SU wrote:
      Wait, how do I make the support thing green like the others?

      Support surrounded by two "{" on each side. ​​​​​ Hope that helps. Same applies to oppose btw.

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    • Memin' Universe SU wrote:
      Wait, how do I make the support thing green like the others?

      {.{Support}.} (Just remove the dots)

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    • Memin' Universe SU wrote: Wait, how do I make the support thing green like the others?

      {{support}}

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    • Symbol support vote Support

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    • Symbol support vote Support

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    • Symbol support vote Support wiki isnt the same with out comments,please mods,bring em back.

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    • Cheeseskates wrote:

      Memin' Universe SU wrote: Wait, how do I make the support thing green like the others?

      {{support}}

      Oh, thanks! Symbol support vote Support

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    • Symbol support vote Support

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    • Symbol strong support vote Strongly support

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    • O_O

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    • Symbol support vote Support because, although, it was slightly my fault they're gone, I only meant they should be monitored more, not that they should be gotten rid of entirely

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    • I came to help

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    • Symbol support vote YES

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    • Ok

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    • Wow. Only one person opposed XD

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    • Memin' Universe SU wrote:

      Symbol support vote Support

      Pictogram voting comment Comment You've already voted.

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    • Pictogram voting comment Comment yeet

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    • oh. :\

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    • I vote Symbol neutral vote Neutral.

      The progress of this new change will be measured in months, not days, as such drastic change should be more thouroughly analyzed before making a final conclusion. The most entrusted individuals in our community have decided to make this change for a reason, and I feel that the decision they took for the wiki should be respected.



      However, I can also see why they should be brought back, specifically for reasons regarding the foundation of the wiki and one-off thoughts.



      Misunderstood Human (talk) 08:03, January 9, 2020 (UTC)

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    • Symbol strong support vote Strongly support

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    • Jacobacranmer wrote: Symbol support vote Support because, although, it was slightly my fault they're gone, I only meant they should be monitored more, not that they should be gotten rid of entirely

      That's okay. We all make mistakes. Maybe you can send another message explaining that you didn't want the comments to go.

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    • Symbol strong support vote Strongly support

      I liked to go to the beginning of articles and read people's initial theories and thoughts when the subject was brand new. It was fun. ^^

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    • Sophiedp
      Sophiedp removed this reply because:
      offtopic
      07:11, January 11, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • I doubt this is gonna go through anyways,most changes are final :/

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    • When is this thread gonna close? I (think) it's been 2 weeks. I'm oLd now and don't know how long time is XD

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    • It will stay open until we get the comments back.

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    • LapisLazuliisthebest wrote:
      It will stay open until we get the comments back.

      Okay. Thanks!

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    • LapisLazuliisthebest wrote: It will stay open until we get the comments back.

      And what if you don't? (Also, this rationale is not the rationale the OP listed for its extended openness?)

      (I'm kind of surprised how many people consider comments a dealbreaker... on an... encyclopedia?)

      I'm trying to tread lightly because I'm the sole opposer in-thread here...

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    • LapisLazuliisthebest wrote: It will stay open until we get the comments back.

      Pictogram voting comment Comment

      I'm supposing this comment since January 3 hasn't been seen, then. Comments are not coming back.

      From my perspective, the thread and others remain open in the off chance that there will be an argument for restoring comments that hasn't been addressed with counterpoints already and proves comments be significantly superior to Forums, Discussions, and/or Discord in many ways. In that case, only respond on the "new year, new wiki" thread since that miracle for pro-commenters hasn't come yet.

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    • Cheeseskates wrote:

      I'm supposing this comment since January 3 hasn't been seen, then. Comments are not coming back.

      From my perspective, the thread and others remain open in the off chance that there will be an argument for restoring comments that hasn't been addressed with counterpoints already and proves comments be significantly superior to Forums, Discussions, and/or Discord in many ways. In that case, only respond on the "new year, new wiki" thread since that miracle for pro-commenters hasn't come yet.

      well it doesn't need to be superior to anything

      the community has spoken and wants it back, y'all just don't want to listen to us and that's the tea, lmao

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    • Symbol support vote Support i mean wut

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    • Pictogram voting comment Comment

      > well it doesn't need to be superior to anything

      I would argue otherwise. Improvements are welcomed over stagnation. The New Year, New Wiki thread has many arguments that state the benefits of removing article comments, and the main criticisms have been addressed. The "addresses" to the criticisms can be expanded on if you wish.

      > y'all just don't want to listen to us and that's the tea

      ... I have made gigantic comments on the "new year, new wiki" thread addressing to the best of my ability the concerns that have been raised, one comment taking me over two hours of reading, thinking, and writing to make possibly my largest comment on a wiki ever. I may not agree with the community on everything, but it is completely false to say that the staff did not listen, so please don't accuse us of such reductionism.

      The 2020 election threads are an example of listening. The staff had the idea of having the community elect two discussions mods because of two reasons: the forums lacked active discussions moderators. 2. Since the community gets to vote who they wanted (thus notifying the community that they have power and time) the new discussions moderators would be of people the community wants to be around and represent them. There are many things to talk about regarding the thread (so do it on that thread), but the point is that some legitimate criticism has been listened to.

      Further responses by me specifically will be on the New Year, New Wiki thread, and I do suggest reading the criticisms being addressed to prevent the redundancy present on the thread already. I won't be responding on this thread.

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    • Honestly, if things had been handled a little differently I would've been all for at least a temporary comment removal. I know I've already harped on it but it's true. Even ignoring the issue with Shep we did have some users act overly hostile about Pink Diamond, interrupting conversations just to say she's not gone, then there were some that would constantly write about the same thing where they hate on certain characters, never give Pink any flack for what she did, and act like other characters are unjustified in being frustrated over her actions.

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    • Bubble-Blitz wrote: well it doesn't need to be superior to anything

      the community has spoken and wants it back, y'all just don't want to listen to us and that's the tea, lmao

      As an admin somewhere else, I'm gonna be bold and blunt here, so sorry if this comes off as rude:

      Community management issues don't always need to be put to a vote, and this has sounded like a community management issue to me this whole time.

      A couple of examples from my own experiences:

      With very little warning and no vote allowed, I unilaterally disabled the achievements extension on the wiki I admin. Should I have waited for the users making the most edits to beg me not to, since they would be viewed by some as "the community"? (They definitely would have opposed my action; they immediately stopped editing after its disabling, and their editing practices were why it was disabled at all.)

      On the wiki I admin, we did briefly put article comments up for discussion before they were disabled. Though the points made by people desiring them to be switched off were more qualitatively sound, should we have not done so since the arguments for keeping them were louder and more impassioned?

      This is probably my Wikipedia tenure and my being used to "!votes (read: not-votes)" talking but I really think the content and context of the arguments for or against is more important for reaching true consensus than just "a lot of people want it" which is what "the community has spoken" feels like from the examples I've seen of support for the comments. In fact, most of the comments here using the "support" template are quantitative votes with little or no qualitative reasoning attached (i.e. they just have the template itself, maybe with an "I like it" or maybe a "the wiki is useless now/I'm not coming here anymore" sentiment attached), though there are a handful that break that mold. (Just a note, but the voting policy here also seems to lean toward !votes, just not to the extent Wikipedia does.)

      TBH, I just wish someone who wants the comments back would or could address my own personal concern that they, for several reasons, make it harder to easily collaboratively edit. But people seem to completely ignore those types of arguments when they have eyes for their own goal.

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    • Cheeseskates wrote:

      LapisLazuliisthebest wrote: It will stay open until we get the comments back.

      Pictogram voting comment Comment

      I'm supposing this comment since January 3 hasn't been seen, then. Comments are not coming back.

      From my perspective, the thread and others remain open in the off chance that there will be an argument for restoring comments that hasn't been addressed with counterpoints already and proves comments be significantly superior to Forums, Discussions, and/or Discord in many ways. In that case, only respond on the "new year, new wiki" thread since that miracle for pro-commenters hasn't come yet.

      But you or no one else has countered MY arguments for the comments.

      I don't like to have to repeat myself, but I mentioned two valid reasons why the comments should be brought back. neither have which have been addressed by you or the other admins. They are as following:

      1. Whilst the forums are better for long discussions (like this one), the comments are better for one-off comments people want to make. If we had to rely on forums just to say "I like Lapis" or "That episode was great" or even "look at this picture I made", then we would have loads of unnecessary threads being made that a lot of people aren't going to be bother to look at, as opposed to comments which are all easy to find.

      2. The comments were memories and part of why people even became users in the first place. It was nice to look back on old comments we made in the past, as well as look at older comments made before a certain reveal. But know they are gone and that's sad.

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    • LapisLazuliisthebest wrote:

      Cheeseskates wrote:

      LapisLazuliisthebest wrote: It will stay open until we get the comments back.

      Pictogram voting comment Comment

      I'm supposing this comment since January 3 hasn't been seen, then. Comments are not coming back.

      From my perspective, the thread and others remain open in the off chance that there will be an argument for restoring comments that hasn't been addressed with counterpoints already and proves comments be significantly superior to Forums, Discussions, and/or Discord in many ways. In that case, only respond on the "new year, new wiki" thread since that miracle for pro-commenters hasn't come yet.

      But you or no one else has countered MY arguments for the comments.

      I don't like to have to repeat myself, but I mentioned two valid reasons why the comments should be brought back. neither have which have been addressed by you or the other admins. They are as following:

      1. Whilst the forums are better for long discussions (like this one), the comments are better for one-off comments people want to make. If we had to rely on forums just to say "I like Lapis" or "That episode was great" or even "look at this picture I made", then we would have loads of unnecessary threads being made that a lot of people aren't going to be bother to look at, as opposed to comments which are all easy to find.

      2. The comments were memories and part of why people even became users in the first place. It was nice to look back on old comments we made in the past, as well as look at older comments made before a certain reveal. But know they are gone and that's sad.

      Okay, but comments sections are generally supposed to be use ONLY to discuss changes that needed to be made to the pages. All that other junk just clutters up the comment sections

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    • Jacobacranmer wrote:

      LapisLazuliisthebest wrote:

      Cheeseskates wrote:

      LapisLazuliisthebest wrote: It will stay open until we get the comments back.

      Pictogram voting comment Comment

      I'm supposing this comment since January 3 hasn't been seen, then. Comments are not coming back.

      From my perspective, the thread and others remain open in the off chance that there will be an argument for restoring comments that hasn't been addressed with counterpoints already and proves comments be significantly superior to Forums, Discussions, and/or Discord in many ways. In that case, only respond on the "new year, new wiki" thread since that miracle for pro-commenters hasn't come yet.

      But you or no one else has countered MY arguments for the comments.

      I don't like to have to repeat myself, but I mentioned two valid reasons why the comments should be brought back. neither have which have been addressed by you or the other admins. They are as following:

      1. Whilst the forums are better for long discussions (like this one), the comments are better for one-off comments people want to make. If we had to rely on forums just to say "I like Lapis" or "That episode was great" or even "look at this picture I made", then we would have loads of unnecessary threads being made that a lot of people aren't going to be bother to look at, as opposed to comments which are all easy to find.

      2. The comments were memories and part of why people even became users in the first place. It was nice to look back on old comments we made in the past, as well as look at older comments made before a certain reveal. But know they are gone and that's sad.

      Okay, but comments sections are generally supposed to be use ONLY to discuss changes that needed to be made to the pages. All that other junk just clutters up the comment sections

      That's talk pages. Comments are for anything relate to the page as long as it's not offence or mentions leaks.

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    • LapisLazuliisthebest wrote:

      Jacobacranmer wrote:

      LapisLazuliisthebest wrote:

      Cheeseskates wrote:

      LapisLazuliisthebest wrote: It will stay open until we get the comments back.

      Pictogram voting comment Comment

      I'm supposing this comment since January 3 hasn't been seen, then. Comments are not coming back.

      From my perspective, the thread and others remain open in the off chance that there will be an argument for restoring comments that hasn't been addressed with counterpoints already and proves comments be significantly superior to Forums, Discussions, and/or Discord in many ways. In that case, only respond on the "new year, new wiki" thread since that miracle for pro-commenters hasn't come yet.

      But you or no one else has countered MY arguments for the comments.

      I don't like to have to repeat myself, but I mentioned two valid reasons why the comments should be brought back. neither have which have been addressed by you or the other admins. They are as following:

      1. Whilst the forums are better for long discussions (like this one), the comments are better for one-off comments people want to make. If we had to rely on forums just to say "I like Lapis" or "That episode was great" or even "look at this picture I made", then we would have loads of unnecessary threads being made that a lot of people aren't going to be bother to look at, as opposed to comments which are all easy to find.

      2. The comments were memories and part of why people even became users in the first place. It was nice to look back on old comments we made in the past, as well as look at older comments made before a certain reveal. But know they are gone and that's sad.

      Okay, but comments sections are generally supposed to be use ONLY to discuss changes that needed to be made to the pages. All that other junk just clutters up the comment sections

      That's talk pages. Comments are for anything relate to the page as long as it's not offence or mentions leaks.

      On every other wiki I've edited on, it's been both that are only for changes that need to be made

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    • Jacobacranmer wrote:

      LapisLazuliisthebest wrote:

      Jacobacranmer wrote:

      LapisLazuliisthebest wrote:

      Cheeseskates wrote:

      LapisLazuliisthebest wrote: It will stay open until we get the comments back.

      Pictogram voting comment Comment

      I'm supposing this comment since January 3 hasn't been seen, then. Comments are not coming back.

      From my perspective, the thread and others remain open in the off chance that there will be an argument for restoring comments that hasn't been addressed with counterpoints already and proves comments be significantly superior to Forums, Discussions, and/or Discord in many ways. In that case, only respond on the "new year, new wiki" thread since that miracle for pro-commenters hasn't come yet.

      But you or no one else has countered MY arguments for the comments.

      I don't like to have to repeat myself, but I mentioned two valid reasons why the comments should be brought back. neither have which have been addressed by you or the other admins. They are as following:

      1. Whilst the forums are better for long discussions (like this one), the comments are better for one-off comments people want to make. If we had to rely on forums just to say "I like Lapis" or "That episode was great" or even "look at this picture I made", then we would have loads of unnecessary threads being made that a lot of people aren't going to be bother to look at, as opposed to comments which are all easy to find.

      2. The comments were memories and part of why people even became users in the first place. It was nice to look back on old comments we made in the past, as well as look at older comments made before a certain reveal. But know they are gone and that's sad.

      Okay, but comments sections are generally supposed to be use ONLY to discuss changes that needed to be made to the pages. All that other junk just clutters up the comment sections

      That's talk pages. Comments are for anything relate to the page as long as it's not offence or mentions leaks.

      On every other wiki I've edited on, it's been both that are only for changes that need to be made

      Well it's never been that way for this wiki. We've always been able to comment on what we want (with the exceptions I've already mentioned)

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    • LapisLazuliisthebest wrote:

      Jacobacranmer wrote:

      LapisLazuliisthebest wrote:

      Jacobacranmer wrote:

      LapisLazuliisthebest wrote:

      Cheeseskates wrote:

      LapisLazuliisthebest wrote: It will stay open until we get the comments back.

      Pictogram voting comment Comment

      I'm supposing this comment since January 3 hasn't been seen, then. Comments are not coming back.

      From my perspective, the thread and others remain open in the off chance that there will be an argument for restoring comments that hasn't been addressed with counterpoints already and proves comments be significantly superior to Forums, Discussions, and/or Discord in many ways. In that case, only respond on the "new year, new wiki" thread since that miracle for pro-commenters hasn't come yet.

      But you or no one else has countered MY arguments for the comments.

      I don't like to have to repeat myself, but I mentioned two valid reasons why the comments should be brought back. neither have which have been addressed by you or the other admins. They are as following:

      1. Whilst the forums are better for long discussions (like this one), the comments are better for one-off comments people want to make. If we had to rely on forums just to say "I like Lapis" or "That episode was great" or even "look at this picture I made", then we would have loads of unnecessary threads being made that a lot of people aren't going to be bother to look at, as opposed to comments which are all easy to find.

      2. The comments were memories and part of why people even became users in the first place. It was nice to look back on old comments we made in the past, as well as look at older comments made before a certain reveal. But know they are gone and that's sad.

      Okay, but comments sections are generally supposed to be use ONLY to discuss changes that needed to be made to the pages. All that other junk just clutters up the comment sections

      That's talk pages. Comments are for anything relate to the page as long as it's not offence or mentions leaks.

      On every other wiki I've edited on, it's been both that are only for changes that need to be made

      Well it's never been that way for this wiki. We've always been able to comment on what we want (with the exceptions I've already mentioned)

      I know that. And that's the exact reason the comments sections were always so cluttered and part of why I suggested the change that ended with the sections being removed

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    • Ok

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    • Jacobacranmer wrote:

      LapisLazuliisthebest wrote:

      Jacobacranmer wrote:

      LapisLazuliisthebest wrote:

      Jacobacranmer wrote:

      LapisLazuliisthebest wrote:

      Cheeseskates wrote:

      LapisLazuliisthebest wrote: It will stay open until we get the comments back.

      Pictogram voting comment Comment

      I'm supposing this comment since January 3 hasn't been seen, then. Comments are not coming back.

      From my perspective, the thread and others remain open in the off chance that there will be an argument for restoring comments that hasn't been addressed with counterpoints already and proves comments be significantly superior to Forums, Discussions, and/or Discord in many ways. In that case, only respond on the "new year, new wiki" thread since that miracle for pro-commenters hasn't come yet.

      But you or no one else has countered MY arguments for the comments.

      I don't like to have to repeat myself, but I mentioned two valid reasons why the comments should be brought back. neither have which have been addressed by you or the other admins. They are as following:

      1. Whilst the forums are better for long discussions (like this one), the comments are better for one-off comments people want to make. If we had to rely on forums just to say "I like Lapis" or "That episode was great" or even "look at this picture I made", then we would have loads of unnecessary threads being made that a lot of people aren't going to be bother to look at, as opposed to comments which are all easy to find.

      2. The comments were memories and part of why people even became users in the first place. It was nice to look back on old comments we made in the past, as well as look at older comments made before a certain reveal. But know they are gone and that's sad.

      Okay, but comments sections are generally supposed to be use ONLY to discuss changes that needed to be made to the pages. All that other junk just clutters up the comment sections

      That's talk pages. Comments are for anything relate to the page as long as it's not offence or mentions leaks.

      On every other wiki I've edited on, it's been both that are only for changes that need to be made

      Well it's never been that way for this wiki. We've always been able to comment on what we want (with the exceptions I've already mentioned)

      I know that. And that's the exact reason the comments sections were always so cluttered and part of why I suggested the change that ended with the sections being removed

      They weren't cluttered to be. Besides, if the comments stay gone the forums are going to get even more cluttered.

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    • I'm not saying any more until an admin, or at least someone who has been a very active user, looks at my arguments and addresses them.

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    • Jacobacranmer wrote:

      LapisLazuliisthebest wrote:

      Jacobacranmer wrote:

      LapisLazuliisthebest wrote:

      Jacobacranmer wrote:

      Okay, but comments sections are generally supposed to be use ONLY to discuss changes that needed to be made to the pages. All that other junk just clutters up the comment sections

      That's talk pages. Comments are for anything relate to the page as long as it's not offence or mentions leaks.

      On every other wiki I've edited on, it's been both that are only for changes that need to be made

      Well it's never been that way for this wiki. We've always been able to comment on what we want (with the exceptions I've already mentioned)

      I know that. And that's the exact reason the comments sections were always so cluttered and part of why I suggested the change that ended with the sections being removed

      (EDIT 22:24, January 14, 2020 (UTC): Tried to snip above quote to lessen its length/profile. Not sure it was effective...)

      Just a note: Without doing special things like scripting (which this wiki didn't do), the comments extension will hide the button to go to the talk page (making the only ways to access it being a link someone puts somewhere, the search, or typing it directly in your browser's address bar). Can't have discussion of much of anything if the interface doesn't even let you know the page exists. The result is that if talk pages are used for serious discussion, it may languish without replies (because it's hard to know about something if you can't even tell the page it's on is there), and if article comments are attempted to be used for content improvement and consensus building, things can get quickly lost between other content, especially since it's also not possible to put a comment thread or the comments for a certain page on your watchlist.

      Also, Article Comments as you currently know them are going bye-bye at the same time as the forum extension is. The replacement may or may not be something you consider "good enough" depending on what it is and what you like or don't like about article comments.

      Further, I don't get what's so special about having a catch-all area for anything vaguely related to the page/topic at hand directly underneath it on an informational/encyclopedic website, even one discussing a topic with a fandom like many Wikia wikis including this one are. *Steven voice* ...Is it me?

      (Sorry if this reads weird, I typed the whole thing, then dropped my mouse and accidentally clicked Pearl in the sidebar (why do we even have that lever?!), necessitating me typing this entire thing out a second time.)

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    • Pictogram voting comment Comment Sorry, but these quote towers are honestly a bit frustrating, you guys are discussing, but the quote towers are a bit out of hand.

      Please try not to overquote.

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    • Cheeseskates wrote:

      From my perspective, the thread and others remain open in the off chance that there will be an argument for restoring comments that hasn't been addressed with counterpoints already and proves comments be significantly superior to Forums, Discussions, and/or Discord in many ways. In that case, only respond on the "new year, new wiki" thread since that miracle for pro-commenters hasn't come yet.

      Looking for an argument that proves comments superior is pointless as comments are not the same those. the comments are for minor things pertaining to a page from possible changes to personal opinions and many would often prefer leaving a small thought in the comments as opposed to leaving it in a discord(where things get swept away in a flood of other comments and people talking at once) creating a small discussion that happens over time without being lost. each thing is for a different type of conversation and depends on what the user is looking for. having comments did not get in the way of people discussing changes they could still do that just fine.

      As for removing them i see no reason this was necessary in the first place. i know you have a distaste for the trolls/spam/and gender confusion/arguments(which that one is inevitable with a show like this) and i know things like the lauren zuke incident is a blemish on the fandom but removing comments benefits the wiki in no way. all this does is just wipe away the things you dont like and dont want to be seen. getting rid of this has no benefit as the comments are nothing more than small talk that viewers could go down and look at if they wanted(they arnt going to scroll down and see some weird gender conversation or neck spam and start hating its existence) the most removing the comments will do is likely lower overall wiki activity(you would be surprised how such a seemingly minor feature being removed can have a big impact)

      no matter what the comments could only of been a neutral or beneficial thing for the wiki as all the negatives are purely based on distaste and annoyances for just the commenter's who would have that getting in the way. but if you hate what the comments were that much than feel free to have your way.

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    • Zacharyman1mil wrote:

      no matter what the comments could only of been a neutral or beneficial thing for the wiki as all the negatives are purely based on distaste and annoyances for just the commenter's who would have that getting in the way.

      when will an actual answer to "they're really bad/difficult to use for in-depth discussion of content improvements and consensus-gathering and push easier/more useful ways all the way to invisibility" come back from the war

      Because that is a real, actual negative to having the comments enabled, and it doesn't have anything to do with the type of person who frequents comment sections or annoyance or distaste for comments in general (other than that if the comments were, say, only allowed to discuss article improvements, then there would be less overall content in the sections to search through when, say, looking for updates to the specific comment thread you're looking for, which the extension/software won't let you follow like you could follow a forum thread or watch a talk page).

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    • Citrusellaeditswikis wrote:

      when will an actual answer to "they're really bad/difficult to use for in-depth discussion of content improvements and consensus-gathering and push easier/more useful ways all the way to invisibility" come back from the war

      Because that is a real, actual negative to having the comments enabled, and it doesn't have anything to do with the type of person who frequents comment sections or annoyance or distaste for comments in general (other than that if the comments were, say, only allowed to discuss article improvements, then there would be less overall content in the sections to search through when, say, looking for updates to the specific comment thread you're looking for, which the extension/software won't let you follow like you could follow a forum thread or watch a talk page).

      comments are generally not used for an in-depth discussion thats why they are called comments. comments can and have gone into a full scale discussion but that is not what they are for and not what most people will do with them.

      are for the pushing other ways to invisibility(if i am not misunderstanding what you mean with this) i dont see how that is directly the comments fault. if somebody has something to say and didnt know/want to use something other than the comments than they just wont. if the comments were not there then they would likely use other methods instead if they knew about them(or just not bother or have to figure out how to use other methods)

      removing the simple method doesnt automatically mean an improvement for the more in-depth methods it just means they have fewer options and may choose not to use said options. just because it is the most commonly used doesnt mean the other methods are made less known by its existence. if somebody wants to be in a discussion they would go to one,if they wanted to just make a small note they would use the comments. if they dont know about those than most likely would not search up any others and just forget about it.

      but i guess i should reword my philosophy on positives and negatives. every single thing does have positives and negatives the only difference is which outweighs the others and the comments had very minor negatives.

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    • Zacharyman1mil wrote:

      comments are generally not used for an in-depth discussion thats why they are called comments. comments can and have gone into a full scale discussion but that is not what they are for and not what most people will do with them.

      are for the pushing other ways to invisibility(if i am not misunderstanding what you mean with this) i dont see how that is directly the comments fault. if somebody has something to say and didnt know/want to use something other than the comments than they just wont. if the comments were not there then they would likely use other methods instead if they knew about them(or just not bother or have to figure out how to use other methods)

      removing the simple method doesnt automatically mean an improvement for the more in-depth methods it just means they have fewer options and may choose not to use said options. just because it is the most commonly used doesnt mean the other methods are made less known by its existence. if somebody wants to be in a discussion they would go to one,if they wanted to just make a small note they would use the comments. if they dont know about those than most likely would not search up any others and just forget about it.

      but i guess i should reword my philosophy on positives and negatives. every single thing does have positives and negatives the only difference is which outweighs the others and the comments had very minor negatives.

      That's my point: If comments are not "for" the kinds of in-depth discussions that improve the wiki content, then where do you have those discussions that's similarly not divorced from the page itself, like how comments are right there?

      The answer would be "talk pages" except turning on the extension hides the interface link to the talk page unless it's added back with a script, which means even though you can still create a talk page, no one would know if a discussion about improving an article is happening there without going to lengths on their own or being linked to it by another person. No one uses an option if they don't know it exists. (That's what I meant by "invisibility" and is definitely directly the fault of the way the extension is coded. That's not the fault of the sysops on any wiki it's enabled on so much as Wikia coders and staff, but still.)

      I'm saying people can't easily get to talk pages when the extension is on, which makes them a not-good space for discussion, but the comments by design are also not very useful for in-depth discussion of stuff like content improvement, especially if it may take awhile and particularly on more popular or controversial pages that might garner more frequent comments (because in a sea of other comments they can easily get lost). And then other avenues like forums or message walls or Discussions (nngh, whenever that eventually goes live here) or (particularly) Discord are rather separate from where the content is in ways that make it very hard to discuss changes to it easily, IMO.

      And I think being unable to easily discuss changes to the content in-depth if need be without going somewhere divorced from said content is a fairly serious negative on an encyclopedic/informational project trying to present things in a professional-ish fashion, like SU Wiki seems to at least try for. But maybe that's just me, and maybe it's the Wikipedian in me talking.

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    • Memin' Universe SU wrote: When is this thread gonna close? I (think) it's been 2 weeks. I'm oLd now and don't know how long time is XD

      Well, it has been 14 days since the comments were disabled.
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    • LapisLazuliisthebest wrote: I'm not saying any more until an admin, or at least someone who has been a very active user, looks at my arguments and addresses them.

      Most arguments made on this thread have been addressed on the new year, new wiki thread right here. As I said on this thread, I won't be responding on this thread but only the new year, new wiki thread. I ask that people direct their concerns to that thread instead so we can keep everyone's statements under one umbrella. It's up to you, but I'll be sticking with this protocol personally.

      Cheers!

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    • Bluebird Azurite5 wrote:

      Memin' Universe SU wrote: When is this thread gonna close? I (think) it's been 2 weeks. I'm oLd now and don't know how long time is XD

      Well, it has been 14 days since the comments were disabled.

      I want to leave it to a month to go on

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    • Okay, can eokp

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    • ora

      muda?

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    • Support



      I would love the comments back frankly. they weren't there for me and i hadn't seen the updates and thoght my table was bein weird. while i understand some people have been rude in the comments in regards to things they dislike or whtever I personally like having the option to post up my quick little thoughts on how cool a picture is or compliment someone on something they've do without going to the wall of that person, and also I just like to see if people ahve the same thoughts on like, how episodes or stuff like that were and the things we have in common and stuff like that. Please bring comments back!

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    • CharmcasterX wrote:
      Support


      I would love the comments back frankly. they weren't there for me and i hadn't seen the updates and thoght my table was bein weird. while i understand some people have been rude in the comments in regards to things they dislike or whtever I personally like having the option to post up my quick little thoughts on how cool a picture is or compliment someone on something they've do without going to the wall of that person, and also I just like to see if people ahve the same thoughts on like, how episodes or stuff like that were and the things we have in common and stuff like that. Please bring comments back!

      You gotta say "Symbol support vote Support" for it to work but without the quotation marks and spaces

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    • I mean { { support } } but without the spaces ​​

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    • Symbol strong support vote Strongly support We need them back

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    • Cheechdog2 wrote:
      Symbol strong support vote Strongly support We need them back

      Um, I think you mispelled something. It's supposed to be "We NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED them back". You're welcome lol

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    • You are right, I keep going to post something on the comments but keep forgetting they are not there.

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    • Bluebird Azurite5 wrote:
      You are right, I keep going to post something on the comments but keep forgetting they are not there.

      Ikr?!? I've gotten so used to scrolling down to the bottom of Steven's page to see what kind of brilliant comments you guys have made, only to be disappointed :(

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    • Memin' Universe SU wrote:
      Bluebird Azurite5 wrote:
      You are right, I keep going to post something on the comments but keep forgetting they are not there.
      Ikr?!? I've gotten so used to scrolling down to the bottom of Steven's page to see what kind of brilliant comments you guys have made, only to be disappointed :(

      if there is anything white diamond has taught us its trying to make things better always make its worse lol

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    • Zacharyman1mil wrote:

      Memin' Universe SU wrote:
      Bluebird Azurite5 wrote:
      You are right, I keep going to post something on the comments but keep forgetting they are not there.
      Ikr?!? I've gotten so used to scrolling down to the bottom of Steven's page to see what kind of brilliant comments you guys have made, only to be disappointed :(

      if there is anything white diamond has taught us its trying to make things better always make its worse lol

      Amen.

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    • Memin' Universe SU wrote:
      Cheechdog2 wrote:
      Symbol strong support vote Strongly support We need them back
      Um, I think you mispelled something. It's supposed to be "We NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED them back". You're welcome lol

      Thanks for telling me. :3

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    • Zacharyman1mil wrote:

      if there is anything white diamond has taught us its trying to make things better always make its worse lol

      Pictogram voting comment Comment
      Mods: *remove comments*
      Users: Hey this is just like when WD literally mind controlled people and took away all of their free will to suite her needs.

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    • Cheechdog2 wrote:
      Memin' Universe SU wrote:
      Cheechdog2 wrote:
      Symbol strong support vote Strongly support We need them back
      Um, I think you mispelled something. It's supposed to be "We NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED them back". You're welcome lol
      Thanks for telling me. :3

      No prob, Bob XD

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    • Zacharyman1mil wrote:

      Memin' Universe SU wrote:
      Bluebird Azurite5 wrote:
      You are right, I keep going to post something on the comments but keep forgetting they are not there.
      Ikr?!? I've gotten so used to scrolling down to the bottom of Steven's page to see what kind of brilliant comments you guys have made, only to be disappointed :(

      if there is anything white diamond has taught us its trying to make things better always make its worse lol

      I feel you

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    • TheNinjaOnTheTop wrote:

      Zacharyman1mil wrote:

      if there is anything white diamond has taught us its trying to make things better always make its worse lol

      Pictogram voting comment Comment
      Mods: *remove comments*
      Users: Hey this is just like when WD literally mind controlled people and took away all of their free will to suite her needs.

      ...That's a little Extra(tm), IMO. (Unless you're doing an over-the-top paraphrase/summary of the general conversation so far around the point, from people who didn't like the change.)

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    • Soooooooooooooooo...when's SU Wiki gonna give up and realize that it's time to bring back the comments? I mean, it's literally 36-1! Not including the neutrals

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    • Memin' Universe SU wrote: Soooooooooooooooo...when's SU Wiki gonna give up and realize that it's time to bring back the comments? I mean, it's literally 36-1! Not including the neutrals

      Comments could (no guarantees) be brought back when an argument in the "New Year, New Wiki" thread obliterates (lack of a better word) arguments for Forums and against Comments and enlightens the wiki on how comments have significant superiority over other options despite all counterpoints. That argument can only be made on the "New Year, New Wiki" thread, and it's one possibility of many. Since there isn't one or many, the comments will remain disabled.

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    • Return The Comments. My vote is support. I WANT THEM BACK, YOU HEAR ME??? B-A-C-K. BACK

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    • Use this "{{Support}}" for your answer.

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    • Symbol support vote Support

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    • Zacharyman1mil wrote:

      Memin' Universe SU wrote:
      Bluebird Azurite5 wrote:
      You are right, I keep going to post something on the comments but keep forgetting they are not there.
      Ikr?!? I've gotten so used to scrolling down to the bottom of Steven's page to see what kind of brilliant comments you guys have made, only to be disappointed :(

      if there is anything white diamond has taught us its trying to make things better always make its worse lol

      Okay, now I sort of feel that the WD thing is kind of offensive to the mods. But, anyway, I want the comments back, despite it changing probably taking a lot of time to bring back. It would bring a lot of people who use this wiki joy and happiness! oUwUo

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    • Memin' Universe SU wrote: Soooooooooooooooo...when's SU Wiki gonna give up and realize that it's time to bring back the comments? I mean, it's literally 36-1! Not including the neutrals

      It's entirely possible people who would support the comments' removal haven't made it to this thread or don't even frequent discussion areas of the site at all and thus don't know of this thread's existence. If they're anything like me (the sole "official" oppose vote), they might trend toward using/editing this wiki as an encyclopedic resource and not in other capacities like forum threads, blogs, etc. Threads like this are inherently skewed toward depicting the thoughts and opinions of the type of people who frequent discussion areas so we can't be totally sure the vote is unbiased, especially in the case of comments since people who care enough about them to yell about how much they want them back or even threaten to leave the wiki over their removal are by definition people who frequent discussion areas.

      I personally saw this thread linked in the official thread where the announcement was made and then didn't come over here for a few days and almost didn't at all. If I hadn't come here and voted at all, the impression would then be that no one likes the comments' removal.

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    • Citrusellaeditswikis wrote:

      ...That's a little Extra

      Correct.

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    • Y'know what, I'm changing my vote from Symbol support vote Support to Symbol neutral vote Neutral.

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    • I thought it over and instead of Symbol support vote Support I vote Symbol neutral vote Neutral

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    • I have been meaning to switch to Symbol neutral vote Neutral but I didn't want to bump the thread.

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    • It's fine. I'm counting until 2 February for the end of the vote.

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    • I'm changing my vote from Symbol support vote Support to Symbol neutral vote Neutral as well

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    • i still support

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    • Symbol strong support vote Strongly support

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    • Symbol strong support vote Strongly support I'm not really a fan of the comments being removed, it seems like an unnecessary change. 

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    • Tomorrow is February 2.

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    • Oh yeah it's today. So it's 35-1 (and also 7 neutrals) so...

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    • Mods already said it’s not a question for the community voice - there are logistical problems with too many spaces to moderate and not enough moderators. Unless someone has found a clear, unambiguous function that comments served for which there is no workaround using Discord or the Forum, then the comments aren’t coming back.

      Leastways that was how I read it 🤷‍♀️

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    • ^^^ This

      Also, restating again for the record that there are probably people who are okay or even glad in regards to the comments' removal but just don't frequent discussion spaces or didn't know of this thread. This thread was always going to be inherently and extensively biased toward comment supporters because:

      1. people upset about losing something are going to be louder
      2. people who are so attached to the comments that they must be loud (or even threaten to leave the wiki over their removal) are by definition people who frequent discussion spaces
      3. this thread wasn't highlighted/announcement-ed which means you'd only see it if another user linked you to it--that means it's more susceptible to canvassing (sharing the link with people more likely to discuss or vote the way the link-sharer wants them to) as well as just... not being smack in the global navbar for all to see
        1. (Please note the canvassing bit was a "be aware" note, not an "I think this happened" note.)

      TL;DR: Along with what Ke2083 already said about the mods' statements... if this were to be a thing that could be put to community discussion (I'm not even going to use the term "vote" here because I think voting is too flat and we need to examine the merits of the arguments rather than just the number of people saying them), then IMO it should have been much more methodical, widespread, and thought-out, with a lot more actual discussion of the real pros and cons happening.

      Since that TL;DR is quite long: I don't think a "what's it gonna be" as if the vote is binding here makes sense when it was so informal and potentially-not-seen-by-enough-different-types-of-people.

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    • ora

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    • ?

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    • So...we won?

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    • Won? In what way would “we” have “won”?

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    • As it stands right now, the comments have been restored in an archived state.

      Users will be able to read the comments that have previously been made on articles but no longer be able to create new ones.

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    • I don't like that compromise.

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    • Well at least we got our memories back.

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    • Steven+Amethyst=SmokyQuartz wrote: I don't like that compromise.

      Then the community needs to be addressed, not us. We are merely reacting to your behaviour as a community. Hounding the staff with no real intention to change will not convince us at this time.

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    • Piierogii wrote:

      Steven+Amethyst=SmokyQuartz wrote: I don't like that compromise.

      Then the community needs to be addressed, not us. We are merely reacting to your behaviour as a community. Hounding the staff with no real intention to change will not convince us at this time.

      Guess I'll take what I can get.

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    • LapisLazuliisthebest wrote: Well at least we got our memories back.

      Memories of flame-bait arguments?

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    • oof

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    • Thanks for reactiviting the comments albeit disabled now I found the Crystal Gem pic that I've been looking for...

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    • StereoTitan877 wrote:

      LapisLazuliisthebest wrote: Well at least we got our memories back.

      Memories of flame-bait arguments?

      About two pages have those kind of comments. That's out of 2,165 pages in total.

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    • nice

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    • Ke2083 wrote:
      Mods already said it’s not a question for the community voice - there are logistical problems with too many spaces to moderate and not enough moderators. Unless someone has found a clear, unambiguous function that comments served for which there is no workaround using Discord or the Forum, then the comments aren’t coming back.

      Leastways that was how I read it 🤷‍♀️

      yeah that's not how a community website works

      that's saying "we said and what we said goes", and that's a dictatorship

      how many times do i have to say it: people. do. not. want. to. join. discord. or. make. titled. posts. for. everything. they. wish. to. say.

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    • well correction that stance is more akin to an oligarchy, to say that only the votes of a select few individuals (i.e. mods) count, and the actual community doesn't get to pick anything

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    • >Discord or the Forum

      time to list the numerous problems with these things and why i am fighting the push to make me use them

      i use discord for discussion regarding my personal life, sexuality and gender identity, personal artwork, conversing with my closest friends, meeting other people who are going through the same stress, etc, i do not want it clouded with random servers that i only used once

      the forums are a nuisance, why you ask? titles. titles are a freaking nuisance, i'm making a comment not writing an essay (that's not to mention the annoying notifications)

      and the problem shared between them both, sometimes i want to just make a comment, i don't WANT to join a community, i don't WANT to start a discussion, i want to make an off handed comment to make people think, and perhaps occasionally respond to an equally off handed reply

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    • You're right, SP, forums and discord serves can't replace comments, because comments are essentially an off-handed way of sharing your opinion usually without the intention of starting a discussion, and people can either respond or not and it wouldn't make a difference (most of the time). Restoring previous comments but removing the ability of adding new ones may perserve memories, but it takes away the option of casually providing your opinion without having to make a lengthy forum or go through the process of joining a discord server, which is what people want to do sometimes (I know, I do). Removing the comments in the first place was a mistake, and this comprise doesn't really help much in my opinion.

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    • SaltyPearl7152 wrote: yeah that's not how a community website works

      that's saying "we said and what we said goes", and that's a dictatorship

      how many times do i have to say it: people. do. not. want. to. join. discord. or. make. titled. posts. for. everything. they. wish. to. say.

      Then go without. Negativity like this will be much appreciated elsewhere, and I can say if this is how you'll act, then I am very glad that you do not wish to engage on this site any more.


      You aren't special. Everyone else on this website can adapt and are happy with whatever compromise we have STRUGGLED TO REACH. No matter what we decide to do, people are unhappy, destroying ANY sense of community that there was.

      Running a website like this, with comments like yours every day no matter how hard we try, is hard. We are people too. If you think you are so desperately unhappy here, you can leave the so called "dictatorship". It would make our jobs a lot easier.

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    • it does not affect me, since I am not right for here. I'm out! plz block me forever.

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    • Piierogii wrote:

      SaltyPearl7152 wrote: yeah that's not how a community website works

      that's saying "we said and what we said goes", and that's a dictatorship

      how many times do i have to say it: people. do. not. want. to. join. discord. or. make. titled. posts. for. everything. they. wish. to. say.

      Then go without. Negativity like this will be much appreciated elsewhere, and I can say if this is how you'll act, then I am very glad that you do not wish to engage on this site any more.


      You aren't special. Everyone else on this website can adapt and are happy with whatever compromise we have STRUGGLED TO REACH. No matter what we decide to do, people are unhappy, destroying ANY sense of community that there was.

      Running a website like this, with comments like yours every day no matter how hard we try, is hard. We are people too. If you think you are so desperately unhappy here, you can leave the so called "dictatorship". It would make our jobs a lot easier.

      We understand that running a wiki is difficult, and that it's frustrating when people are unhappy with your decisions, but critiques from users are intended to help and improve the wiki, not spread negativity. No matter what you do, there will always be people that are unhappy, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't consider the opinons of users and change certain aspects of the wiki based on that. I personally don't like the comprimise made for the comments, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate the staff and the amount of work they have to do, nor am I unhappy with the wiki. You're being way too hard on SP, she's just trying to state what she feels is problematic about the inability to add comments, and doesn't deserve to be criticized for critiquing or sharing her opinion. Calling the wiki a dictatorship is admittedly a bit much, but she did later correct herself with a less extreme statement. Please consider the opinions of users whether they're positive or negative as they can be helpful in deciding the best way to improve the wiki and remember that the staff are genuinely appreciated, and most critiques made to the wiki have the best intentions.

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    • Ke2083
      Ke2083 removed this reply because:
      I posted whilst irritated - removed to preserve the general decency.
      22:04, February 4, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • TheNinjaOnTheTop
      TheNinjaOnTheTop removed this reply because:
      reply was removed.
      22:09, February 4, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • the only problem i have is when we're finding a "compromise" that's like, what, five people vs 50 people

      and i think you're overestimating how much i care, my whole point is i don't want to put in so much effort just to say that larimar has four fingers

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    • So dont

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    • i would say if it's so hard to moderate then just hire more staff but it seems you're already doing so, so, well, good on you for that

      my problem is in that you make final decisions among THE STAFF ONLY, which is simply reprehensable behavior for a community site

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    • as for the quality of the actual wiki, i feel like breif comments really benefit the content, such as pointing out small errors on locked pages or png mistakes, as, like i said, most people don't care enough to make titled posts for such things

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    • Wikias on Fandom are run under the sole discretion of the acting administrators. There are wikis that do not allow any user input at all.

      The administrators of the Steven Universe wiki have always been open to user input and almost every single time that we are, it comes back to bite us in the form of abusive administrators and staff members that were voted in by the user-base, inappropriate content and/or ideas being shared and discussed, or ineffective methods of organization and/or moderation being enforced.

      All we really ask of our users is to behave and not constantly berate us for doing our best and working in the best interests of the wiki as a whole.

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    • i am aware other wikis are far worse than this one, and for good reason i do not use them

      the only reason i take issue with this is the fact that its a massive community changing (and in my opinion, community destroying) decision, and the community was given no say, it was done out of complete random with no community vote

      obviously the community does not need to vote on everything, i don't care to vote on font colors or template formatting, in fact i'd rather you guys decide that yourself and spare me the notifications, all that stuff looks great anyway, but something like this is unarguably HUGE and effects EVERYONE who frequents here

      that said, i do at least appreciate the comment archives, because i did NOT appreciate all the data i'd left there being tossed out, so i'm glad to have that back, but i'd still like this place to be an actual casual community rather than a series of stiff and stilted forum posts

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    • Just Asking : Why not just Ban Comments on Certain Pages?

      Like Pink´s,Shep´s,etc...

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    • yeah i'm not sure

      also tip, set your keyboard to US and your apostrophes won't turn into floating accent marks

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    • Because you cannot do that. The way comment sections work is they can either be enabled for all pages or disabled for all pages. You can't pick and choose which pages can and cannot have comment sections

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    • Oh.That´s Crappy.

      And No,i wont do that.For Many reasons this Thread isn About.

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    • well that's pretty stupid

      but isn't the fault of the steven universe wiki staff, but rather wiki site staff as a whole, as that seems like a pretty obvious feature to impliment

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    • Its really not stupid when you think about it. Having to turn off/on the comment sections would be very tedious work, especially for a wiki like this that has over 2,000 pages

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    • no i mean you should have both an option to disable them altogether (or not, as wikis without comments i have observed to be consistently lackiluster) OR simply lock a specific page, with that setup you shouldn't need to lock comments on dozens of pages individually because if THAT MANY are controversial (which honestly i doubt would ever happen) they could still be fully disabled

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    • I'm just gonna restate in the most succinct fashion possible: There have been a number of times the presence of comments and/or the relative difficulty of using them for discussing content improvements have put me off editing an article or bringing forth an idea for a change until such time such a change did not feel like it required discussion.

      Why is the ability to leave a random comment Reddit or YouTube style more important than being able to easily ask for and follow input to improve an article?

      (EDIT: The archival re-enabling of the comments extension has caused my global "bring the talk link out of the dropdown" style to fail... hmmm... I should look into this...)

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    • it certainly is annoying that all comments must end because a few of them were a little out of hand. why an option like that doesnt exist is beyond me.

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    • If you have a question about editing it's preferred that you ask a wikia staff member. The most efficient way to contact a staff member is via their message wall because it will give them a notification.

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    • ...Was that in reply to what I said (asking since I mentioned editing a lot) or someone else?

      (If it was about me: I don't usually have questions about editing itself, it's just sometimes that I like to build consensus with other people who edit the same article and that's much easier on a talk page than in the comments/message walls/etc., IMO. (Though the last big thing that did put me off discussing an edit elsewhere because it was kind of complex would have required sysop help since it was on a page fullprotected at the time...))

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    • Yay, comments are back although it say “article comments are disabled”.

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    • yeah we at least have an archive of comments that already existed, instead of all the files and information i left there just being carelessly deleted

      so that's good

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    • I Symbol support vote Support It

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    • I have responded to all the type of comments below on the other thread, so I'll make short responses that are expanded upon in the link.

      StereoTitan877 wrote:

      LapisLazuliisthebest wrote: Well at least we got our memories back.

      Memories of flame-bait arguments?

      Those can be deleted if you let us know about them.

      SaltyPearl7152 wrote: well correction that stance is more akin to an oligarchy, to say that only the votes of a select few individuals (i.e. mods) count, and the actual community doesn't get to pick anything

      Unfortunate fact for some: the wiki isn't a full-on democracy. If the majority want to allow vandalism on the wiki, the moderators will simply say no. The community decision is then void.

      SaltyPearl7152 wrote: i use discord for discussion regarding my personal life, sexuality and gender identity, personal artwork, conversing with my closest friends, meeting other people who are going through the same stress, etc, i do not want it clouded with random servers that i only used once

      Feel free to use our services however you wish, but these are considered subjective opinions and not objective flaws with the alternatives themselves. Only you can fix it, not us.

      SaltyPearl7152 wrote: the forums are a nuisance, why you ask? titles. titles are a freaking nuisance, i'm making a comment not writing an essay (that's not to mention the annoying notifications)

      You don't have to.

      SaltyPearl7152 wrote: and the problem shared between them both, sometimes i want to just make a comment, i don't WANT to join a community, i don't WANT to start a discussion, i want to make an off handed comment to make people think, and perhaps occasionally respond to an equally off handed reply

      Sounds like littering. Is there a purpose to this? This is a very specific use-case for comments better suited on sites like Reddit or YouTube.

      Katch C. wrote: 1. You're right, SP, forums and discord serves can't replace comments, because comments are essentially an off-handed way of sharing your opinion usually without the intention of starting a discussion, and people can either respond or not and it wouldn't make a difference (most of the time).

      2. Restoring previous comments but removing the ability of adding new ones may perserve memories, but it takes away the option of casually providing your opinion without having to make a lengthy forum or go through the process of joining a discord server, which is what people want to do sometimes (I know, I do).

      1. You can do that on Forums or Discord. There is the belief that each tool has to have a specific way of communicating, like Forums having long posts. This is false.

      2. You could register a Fandom account to access the wiki. You can spend an extra minute or more signing up to Discord. Even then, you can still provide your casual opinion on the forums. You just need to follow the rules.

      OwOmasterlunarae wrote: it does not affect me, since I am not right for here. I'm out! plz block me forever.

      Check out the Reddit, an actual social media site specifically for whatever casual and formal discussion, memes, etc. you desire. The SU Wiki since the beginning never intended to be another social media site with wiki features, no matter how hard Fandom Staff try. The social features available here are more than sufficient.

      Jacobacranmer wrote: Because you cannot do that. The way comment sections work is they can either be enabled for all pages or disabled for all pages. You can't pick and choose which pages can and cannot have comment sections

      Wrong. It is perfectly possible to disable comments only for specific pages. The Undertale Wiki did this for So Sorry, the character, due to controversy surrounding them. Why does this wiki not do the same, then? The first reason is that it's not a feature provided to us already but we have to create in MediaWiki:Common.css or similar. I have addressed the second reason on the New Year New Wiki thread I have linked at the top of this comment.

      Zacharyman1mil wrote: it certainly is annoying that all comments must end because a few of them were a little out of hand. why an option like that doesnt exist is beyond me.

      I have already addressed why in the New Year New Wiki thread, which is an encouraged read since I tried very hard.

      SaltyPearl7152 wrote: no i mean you should have both an option to disable them altogether (or not, as wikis without comments i have observed to be consistently lackiluster) OR simply lock a specific page, with that setup you shouldn't need to lock comments on dozens of pages individually because if THAT MANY are controversial (which honestly i doubt would ever happen) they could still be fully disabled

      Comment sections considered controversial include:

      • Steven Universe (character) due to "necc" spam and arguments on current personality
      • Lapis and Peridot due to the Zuke "lapidot" controversy
      • Stevonnie due to unconstructive gender debates on non-binarism
      • Shep due to unconstructive gender debates on non-binarism, some purposefully trying to start flame wars (and thus the straw breaking the cammel's back)
      • Smoky, Rainbow 2.0, and Sunstone due to unconstructive gender debates, especially for 2.0 due to the he/him pronouns

      These are pretty major characters that people can't comment on their article anymore. This is a preview of what I said on the New Year New Wiki thread, which I'll advertise like a Marvel movie.

      Citrusellaeditswikis wrote: 1. I'm just gonna restate in the most succinct fashion possible: There have been a number of times the presence of comments and/or the relative difficulty of using them for discussing content improvements have put me off editing an article or bringing forth an idea for a change until such time such a change did not feel like it required discussion.

      2. Why is the ability to leave a random comment Reddit or YouTube style more important than being able to easily ask for and follow input to improve an article?

      3. (EDIT: The archival re-enabling of the comments extension has caused my global "bring the talk link out of the dropdown" style to fail... hmmm... I should look into this...)

      1. Experience with one thing can make alternatives unattractive, especially if they're very different. Adaptation is the solution as technologies get better and priority is given elsewhere. It's all about giving them a shot.

      2. Because many comments never intended to improve an article. It truly was used to either communicate with other people or, for some users, litter comments almost like an unconscious impulse compels them to. This is somewhat fine, though, so long as it follows the comment and forum rules. Feel free to continue having fun, in a different place.

      3. Sophiedp has imported a script that forces the talkpage to appear in dropdowns, regardless of the status of article comments. No worries about that :)

      SaltyPearl7152 wrote: 1 the only reason i take issue with this is the fact that its a massive community changing (and in my opinion, community destroying) decision, and the community was given no say, it was done out of complete random with no community vote

      2. that said, i do at least appreciate the comment archives, because i did NOT appreciate all the data i'd left there being tossed out, so i'm glad to have that back, but i'd still like this place to be an actual casual community rather than a series of stiff and stilted forum posts

      1. This has been addressed on the New Year New Wiki thread, and you are being completely reasonable with this. More careful consideration for major changes will be done in the future. Consideration has also been given to opinions here, but the ultimate decision is that very little is lost for a better gain, objectively speaking.

      2. That is up to the community to establish with "not" stiff and stilted forum threads.

      SaltyPearl7152 wrote: yeah we at least have an archive of comments that already existed, instead of all the files and information i left there just being carelessly deleted

      so that's good

      They were hidden, not deleted (therefore, you can still search for the files, especially those with a good file name instead of a jumble of numbers). Indeed, though, keeping the comments visible for historical purposes has good use, as some users stated on this thread already. Improvements continue to be made.


      I know these comments are long, and some don't like reading long comments. All one can do is read.

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    • I saulte Chess for the good explanations

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    • Cheeseskates wrote:

      3. Sophiedp has imported a script that forces the talkpage to appear in dropdowns, regardless of the status of article comments. No worries about that :)

      I suspected (but didn't know for sure when I made the edit because I hadn't looked) that the TalkButton script was the root of the issue. (In theory, the DedicatedTalkButton (also from Dev Wiki) script I'm using should work on that scripted dropdown option since it's still using the same ID so I think the issue is just that the script forcing it means it takes a couple seconds to load in, enough time to have the other script I'm using just shrug and go to sleep. Oh well, nothing I can do AFAIK. *shrug* I had it because of a very specific me-problem but I'll get over it.)

      (As for #2 I think at this point I'm really just frustrated with the response from people who like comments when I bring up the issues I've personally had with them, as if their input is important and mine isn't. Maybe when I get like that I should just hold my tongue and go edit an article or something. XD)

      Side note: I just wanna say out loud that the implementation of archiving the comments is genius and so simple I'm kind of irritated I didn't think of it when implementing an archive on the wiki I admin. o.o

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    • look, do whatever, but please stop essentially insulting me by giving  me absurd "alternatives"

      a discord server is not and never will be akin to a comment section

      as for the "allow vandalism" thing, yeah obviously, as the wiki is meant to be run by a community of users who wish to better the information, and such vandals are not considered true users, this has nothing to do with oligarchal rankings and does not mean mods get the final say, it simply means vandals are not valid users in the eyes of the wiki and never will be

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    • >(As for #2 I think at this point I'm really just frustrated with the response from people who like comments when I bring up the issues I've personally had with them, as if their input is important and mine isn't. Maybe when I get like that I should just hold my tongue and go edit an article or something. XD)

      actually your opinion is very important to me, i may not agree but i think its worth hearing because you're actually willing to make an argument instead of just saying NAH IM RIGHT TIME TO REMOVE COMMENTS WITHOUT ASKING ANYBODY

      so basically i'm saying your opinion is far less biased

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    • In theory, if enough users are vandals (by usual definitions of the term) then technically vandals are the "true" users, even if they wouldn't call themselves vandals and in that situation they wouldn't consider their edits vandalism. (Calling vandals not "true" users for the sake of this argument feels related to the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, but I'm not sure about that.)

      There exists (or used to exist) a wiki run by a guy I indef blocked from editing the wiki I admin, where he does/did things that were the kind of things that led to his vandalism-related block on the wiki I admin. So his wiki might be a place that others would look at as a wiki for vandalism-type edits, even if he wouldn't call them that, because the majority of users there are fine with those types of edits.

      Point is, if the majority is the decider of what's okay, and the majority are, say, vandals, then in theory they could vote to allow vandalism (even if they don't call it vandalism) and that would be okay and no could say they aren't "real" users because they're the majority. It's an absurd-sounding argument, but it's not impossible if the vote is truly up to the users without admin/moderator oversight (or if said people in power agree with it!).

      I'm glad you respect my argument I guess. I'm actually in a much better mood after taking my advice in the last post of "go edit something" because I decided to try to fix that script issue I had by figuring out how I can edit my user JS or CSS to change the comments button to a talk button for me... and I actually made headway! Whoo!

      I suppose I don't agree in the other direction, even if I also respect the people trying to make arguments for them. (It's just seeing the same cyclical points brought up gets me irritated, I guess.)

      TL;DR: Absurd arguments can be less absurd than they seem, thanks and back at ya, and I like coding. XP

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    • SaltyPearl7152 wrote: 1. look, do whatever, but please stop essentially insulting me by giving  me absurd "alternatives". a discord server is not and never will be akin to a comment section

      2. as for the "allow vandalism" thing, yeah obviously, as the wiki is meant to be run by a community of users who wish to better the information, and such vandals are not considered true users, this has nothing to do with oligarchal rankings and does not mean mods get the final say, it simply means vandals are not valid users in the eyes of the wiki and never will be

      1. It's ultimately up to you, and none intend to be insulting. If you want my observation, Discord is 10x better than the comments, especially since it isn't the same. Perhaps, I don't always use Discord for discussion similar to yours, but the amount of features, possibilities, and continuing ease of use cannot be ignored. Discord and Forums are not missing anything the comments do have except the preference for a niche usage case. They boast many things stated on the New Year, New Wiki thread. I'm sorry that my message was found to be offensive, so it's still up to you on what you do and why. It's just a bit difficult to solve these problems.

      2. The point was that the community doesn't have full control of the wiki for a reason. This is not to say the community's opinion isn't important. Why else am I responding to the community when I could say to get used to it, and why did the comments return in an archived state if not for Citrus, Lapislazuliisthebest, and Ke2083? You can interpret the meaning as you wish.

      Citrusellaeditswikis wrote: As for #2 I think at this point I'm really just frustrated with the response from people who like comments when I bring up the issues I've personally had with them, as if their input is important and mine isn't. Maybe when I get like that I should just hold my tongue and go edit an article or something. XD)

      Everyone's imput is important. I'll do better to recognize these situations and boost morale when I can. I'll make myself clear just in case, though: the moderators intended the comments be for improving articles or just being relevant and useful. When I said "intended," I meant what every other poweruser intended, a social media site in majority.

      SaltyPearl7152 wrote: i may not agree but i think its worth hearing because you're actually willing to make an argument instead of just saying NAH IM RIGHT TIME TO REMOVE COMMENTS WITHOUT ASKING ANYBODY

      I'm aware this comment wasn't directed at me, but everyone has made valid points and are doing their best.

      Citrusellaeditswikis wrote: Point is, if the majority is the decider of what's okay, and the majority are, say, vandals, then in theory they could vote to allow vandalism (even if they don't call it vandalism) and that would be okay and no could say they aren't "real" users because they're the majority. It's an absurd-sounding argument, but it's not impossible if the vote is truly up to the users without admin/moderator oversight (or if said people in power agree with it!).

      This is a clearer hypothetical scenario to clarify why this wiki is not a full-on democracy, so thank you. To state some things, though, even if the majority decided vandalism is okay, Fandom Staff and especially the VSTF will not allow it. Of course, it depends on what the vandalism is ("no hate, no libel, no pornographic content, and no copyright infringement"), but it's ultimately up to those people.

      Here is some background for those interested. Fandom websites, as wikis, are meant to be projects worked on by the community rather than a set few people. This is stated in the community creation policy which various rules exists not to make the wiki akin to a personal website for a founder. Though not listed, the page gives any kind of community the ability to affect the site. The result is that no wiki can ever become an actual dictatorship, oblicarchy, or just akin to a personal website where the founder or group of admins rule with an iron fist.

      If the community is this powerful, then why does this wiki's staff team get to do internal votes that void community consensus? Isn't this site meant to be a community project, and doesn't the policy intend to prevent small groups having total control?

      I'll be honest, there is no clear answer due to the countless variables present. The comments have been disabled without a community discussion, but this criticism was acknowledged along with legitimate counter-criticisms, such as the continued ability to communicate elsewhere with objectively better tools. Yes, a staff vote has nulled the community consensus on this topic, but not all vote threads go through this process, many of which ending as fast as a day from community consensus alone (such as changing images, quotes, and even rules themselves). Such variables and contradictions will continue to puzzle this situation and "what" a community can do for a community project. It's ultimately up to Fandom Staff at the end of the day (it's their website we're freeloading off), but it's definitely a social issue that's persisted not only on Fandom, but for centuries in scholarship, and we're just another victim to this vortex of confusion.

      The concept of "community" is a topic for another day, though. Tl;dr, the community is invaluable in its importance, which is why it has so much power over the wiki. However, there are some limits, hence the moderation team's existence. For me, I rejected the community consensus because I found the reasons to bring article comments back to be subjective and down to a specific psychology that can't be understood objectively. Simply put, the alternatives available besides Article Comments are simply superior in every way, and it's up to the wiki to make those alternatives great. The positives outweigh the negatives almost completely, from my observation. Regardless, I still listened to the community, and that's why I fought for the comments coming back, though in a read-only state.

      That's what the community can do, and the result is a symbiotic relationship that continues to improve each other, even when discourse occurs. That's amazing stuff

        Loading editor
    • except that the "alternatives" are infuriating time consuming annoyances and i wouldn't bat an eye if they were removed

      if a wiki "allows vandalism" then its not really even a wiki and is moreso a meme sharing website so make of that what you will

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    • honestly tell me one thing that's good about those, because i can tell you what's bad

      comments - as simple as scrolling to the bottom of a page and saying something

      forums - have to be titled, require pointless categorization, you have to scroll through like 50 things to get to them, and to add insult to injury give you these annoying notification blurbs

      discord - now this one, ohhhhh this one, where do i even begin

      1. requires another account

      2. completely different formatting

      3. NOTHING like wiki comments, the comparison is simply absurd

      4. many people (such as myself) already use discord for more important things and don't want their server directories clouded with random dribble, which is why i get pretty freaking tired of every website and community spouting JOIN OUR DISCORD. no, the answer is and will forever and always be no, and i would appreciate if community websites would keep the community TO THAT WEBSITE

      to be fair at least the forums are ACTUALLY THE WIKI, perhaps some link cleanup and reformatting could make them a more enjoyable experience, at the moment they're just a sort of annoying feature that's overshadowed by the vastly superior comment sections, but could be useful with some work, the discord server is what i'm frankly insulted by the implication of replacing comments, that's like taking a kid's phone and saying "oh just talk to your friends at school", complete and utter bullcrap

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    • my suggestions for how forums should be improved (although unfortunately i don't know if all of these are options to the staff of individual wikis, i apologize if they aren't, that is unfortunate)

      1. make titles optional, with the default title of, like, "Talkpage: Blue Lace Agate" or something along those lines

      2. remove the annoying categories unless for something important like votes or wiki management

      3. have notifications set to off by default, stop auto-following threads when commented on ​

      again, i apologize if not all of these are options, they should be, but if not then that's the site staff's problem not yours'

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    • SaltyPearl7152 wrote:
      forums - have to be titled, require pointless categorization, you have to scroll through like 50 things to get to them, and to add insult to injury give you these annoying notification blurbs

      1) You can make the titles as long or as short as you want.
      2) They don't require categorization, hell this thread doesn't have any categories.
      3) Can you eleborate on the "scroll through 50 things" because getting to the forums is about as simple as going to a character's page.
      4) You have a point but you can also choose to unfollow a thread you don't want notifs to.

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    • Personally, I really don’t like the Discord! I wanted to like if, I really did, but it just bugged me. The constant swearing was a major factor, as well as the fact one comment could be completely lost in the matter of seconds.

      It was just frustrating for me, and I have no interest in joining again.

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    • SaltyPearl7152 wrote: except that the "alternatives" are infuriating time consuming annoyances and i wouldn't bat an eye if they were removed

      if a wiki "allows vandalism" then its not really even a wiki and is moreso a meme sharing website so make of that what you will

      Nobody said it is tbh.

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    • SaltyPearl7152 wrote: to be fair at least the forums are ACTUALLY THE WIKI, perhaps some link cleanup and reformatting could make them a more enjoyable experience, at the moment they're just a sort of annoying feature that's overshadowed by the vastly superior comment sections, but could be useful with some work, the discord server is what i'm frankly insulted by the implication of replacing comments, that's like taking a kid's phone and saying "oh just talk to your friends at school", complete and utter bullcrap

      Something about the way you describe comments versus the forums makes me think you'd like Discussions, whenever those inevitably make their way here.

      But to your "that's like a parent taking away their kid's phone" point, you are aware parents can and do do that, for reasonable and misguided reasons alike, right? My brother's phone got taken away because he was using it in a way that my parents were not okay with, and he was expected (outside his at-the-same-time grounding) to talk to his friends elsewhere. The parents of some students I work with take away their phone frequently--one of them isn't even allowed a phone at all because it would be extremely detrimental to their life and schooling.

      You could kind of say it's like a whole class losing recess because a couple kids got in a fistfight an hour before it, but depending on the specific scenarios that were the "last straw" it could on the flipside be like not getting to go to recess because the school is on lockdown.

      StereoTitan877 wrote:

      SaltyPearl7152 wrote: except that the "alternatives" are infuriating time consuming annoyances and i wouldn't bat an eye if they were removed

      if a wiki "allows vandalism" then its not really even a wiki and is moreso a meme sharing website so make of that what you will

      Nobody said it is tbh.

      Fun fact! All a wiki really is is a website with pages anyone can edit. Doesn't have to use MediaWiki software like here or Wikipedia, doesn't have to be an encyclopedia. That's what the wiki part means: Wikipedia is a wiki encyclopedia--an encyclopedia anyone can edit, Steven Universe Wiki is a wiki about Steven Universe--a Steven Universe site/encyclopedia anyone (over 13) can edit.

      And if it allows what most people outside of it would consider vandalism, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a meme website. It just means it's a site anyone can edit that allows what many people would consider vandalism.

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    • >anyone (over 13) can edit

      unrelated but this law is a violation of freedom and should be gone, i should be free to parent my children how i want and i don't exactly want to raise sheltered snowflakes so they'll be on the internet if i say they will

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    • SaltyPearl7152 wrote: >anyone (over 13) can edit

      unrelated but this law is a violation of freedom and should be gone, i should be free to parent my children how i want and i don't exactly want to raise sheltered snowflakes so they'll be on the internet if i say they will

      COPPA controls how companies can collect data from children (its not a law that says "you need to be 13+ to use the internet), but some websites don't want to have to manage verification and etc, so they make it so you have to be 13+ to signup. (also if you're in the EEA, you need to be 16 to have a wikia account)

      (also, if you think a law violates your freedoms or etc, please contact a lawyer or your representative(s) rather than just ignoring it)

        Loading editor
    • COPPA is meant to protect the data collected from children, not the children directly. So, like, identifiable information on kids, which websites can sell to advertisers and the like. There are justifiable reasons for COPPA. It's not about whether kids are sheltered or not. It's just the same kind of reason that, say, FERPA (school confidentiality (among other things) law) exists. Kids have the right to go to school, but that doesn't mean I can just blab about them to whoever I want in whatever way I want.

      Websites can choose to comply with it how they want, but since data related to kids takes very specific handling to ensure it's treated correctly (or else sites get fined), lots of sites not specifically for children find the easiest way to prevent collecting data on children is preventing them from making an account. Wikia decided to also prevent anonymous edits on children's-topic related wikis because it's more likely anonymous users might not be of age.

      You can let your kids on the internet and neither you nor them will face any ill effects (unless their age is discovered on a website whose TOS they're violating); you're free to do whatever. But if a site you're on doesn't want you there, whether that's because under COPPA they'd be fined or just because they don't want you there, removing you is their right (and can even be interpreted as constitutionally protected!). Some websites, if they have the resources, allow and record parent permission to have someone under 13 on their site, which is probably your best bet under COPPA.

      Point is, you're free, you're golden, and COPPA has legitimate reasons to exist, even if some websites (like, say, YouTube *cough* YT's-so backwards!! *cough*) choose to comply with it in weird or restrictive ways.

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    • SaltyPearl7152 wrote: honestly tell me one thing that's good about those, because i can tell you what's bad

      comments - as simple as scrolling to the bottom of a page and saying something

      forums - have to be titled, require pointless categorization, you have to scroll through like 50 things to get to them, and to add insult to injury give you these annoying notification blurbs

      discord - now this one, ohhhhh this one, where do i even begin

      1. requires another account

      2. completely different formatting

      3. NOTHING like wiki comments, the comparison is simply absurd

      I have made two YouTube videos comparing the experience between making an Article Comment on the Undertale Wiki (same thing as here) and making a forum post, since I disagree in that these flaws are not as horrible as they sound.

      What does the Article Comments video show? It shows that, from the main page, we are to click on a link going to an article page, scroll down the article, click the empty box or reply button on an existing comment, type the comment, and there it is.

      What does the forums video show? It shows that, from the main page, we are to click the "forums" button, click the board topic to post in, click the "start a discussion" part, enter a short title, enter the text (could just be "title"), and there it is.

      The experience is not as different and complicated as it's claimed to be.

      The videos also demonstrate the capabilities of each feature. The Article Comments require less, making them slightly more convenient to use than Forums, which requires a title. However, because Article Comments require less, it has less than Forums. Here is what Forums can do, which I already stated in New Year, New Wiki:

      • You can unfollow threads you don't want notifications from. Article Comments doesn't allow you to unfollow specific threads. You can only unfollow the page with the Article Comments or follow the page and receive everything about Shep, for example. You probably just want official art, not in-depth discussions, so forth. Article Comments cannot do that.
      • You can sort forum threads in different ways to better help a user search for a topic of interest, trending status, and so forth. Article Comments do not do this, so if you want to search for a specific comment or topic, you have to bear this in mind.
      • Much like Article Comments, Forums also appears at the bottom of articles. This is because, as you mentioned, of topics being categorised, such as Steven Universe (character) in the above picture. The result is that the relevant topics appear on Steven's page, so it's not "pointless". Sure, you have to move your mouse over to the box and type the name of something you're talking about so not to confuse users, but it isn't a requirement and is up to you to make your post visible (but you say that you don't want to start discussions). Forum replicates Article Comments sufficiently, though not exactly.
      • Though a niche benefit, Forum posts can be searched for on Google or other search engines. Maybe you couldn't find a thread or comment through normal means. As a last resort, Google can help. This is not possible for Article Comments, as Google does not index them. Thus, if you can't find the comment or topic you want through Wiki means, then even Google can't help you.

      We'll now move on to Discord and the mentioned flaws about it.

      • requires another account: This is perfectly legitimate criticism that was also mentioned when the wiki chat itself closed in another vote thread. If Discord is to replicate the chat, then it should not require another account. Unfortunately, it's complicated. Discord allows guest accounts to join, so one does not need to sign up to participate. The server doesn't allow this, though, because of the vulnerability it creates for trolls to disrupt the server constantly. The server once had to ask for you to link your wiki account with your Discord account to prove your identity, but this has since been scrapped. I'll talk to the mods about potential alternatives, since Fandom Staff themselves moved to Discord and set up operations accordingly. Other than that, though, is creating a new account that big of a deal?
      • completely different formatting: The Wiki uses Wikitext, while Discord uses Markdown. While they are different formats, their purpose is the same: to enhance one's ability to communicate. You can bold messages to make emphasis, quote people in readable ways, and so forth. Besides text, there is also the way the interface looks (comparison: Discord vs Article Comments). Discord offers channels for different topics to the left, a user list to the right, and the messages in the middle with a box at the bottom, all on one screen with minimal scrolling to find everything. Article Comments offers messages which one can touch/hover over and reply to, and you'll need to find a different page to comment about another character or topic elsewhere. Despite these differences, the way people can make a comment is the same: Touch the specific area, type the comment, and post it for others to see. Thus, even if Discord and Article Comments have different formatting, each serve the same purpose, with one serving the purpose much better, objectively speaking.

      SaltyPearl7152 wrote: 4. many people (such as myself) already use discord for more important things and don't want their server directories clouded with random dribble, which is why i get pretty freaking tired of every website and community spouting JOIN OUR DISCORD. no, the answer is and will forever and always be no, and i would appreciate if community websites would keep the community TO THAT WEBSITE

      We'll agree to disagree, then, so you don't have to read the rest of this response.

      There is a reason that Discord is being used more often, however, and the benefits provided cannot be ignored. Conveniently, Discord offers a feature where you can combine different servers into folders, thus organizing the list. One folder (nor no folder) will contain servers you actually care about, and another folder will contain "random dribble", and how Discord is used will see minimal visible changes, let alone usage changes. Even then, it's a matter of if you think the Steven Universe Wiki Discord is random dribble or another way to get into the community. It's up to you, but how Discord is used is in no way an actual flaw of Discord.

      SaltyPearl7152 wrote: the discord server is what i'm frankly insulted by the implication of replacing Article Comments, that's like taking a kid's phone and saying "oh just talk to your friends at school", complete and utter bullcrap

      I am aware of the real-world science that makes your quoted suggestion completely reasonable, but science is not the topic here. The analogy would more be like telling you to stop using MySpace and use Facebook instead. They're completely different sites, where the latter is more capable than the other, even if less convenient to muscle memory and niche preference. You're still able to communicate in the exact same way, but only in a different space on the internet. The problem is that Facebook is not exactly like MySpace.

      SaltyPearl7152 wrote: my suggestions for how forums should be improved (although unfortunately i don't know if all of these are options to the staff of individual wikis, i apologize if they aren't, that is unfortunate)

      1. make titles optional, with the default title of, like, "Talkpage: Blue Lace Agate" or something along those lines

      2. remove the annoying categories unless for something important like votes or wiki management

      3. have notifications set to off by default, stop auto-following threads when commented on ​

      again, i apologize if not all of these are options, they should be, but if not then that's the site staff's problem not yours'

      1. I don't believe this is possible for us to do. We can contact Fandom Staff and see what could be done. However, from my observations and youtube videos above, it's not a high priority issue.

      2. You don't have to categorise forum posts. The benefit categorisation gives is making it easier for people to search by topic. Your thread could be isolated if you wish. It's not hard to categorise threads anyway, from my observation.

      3. I don't believe this is possible, and yes, I would like this to be a feature in Special:Preferences especially. You can let Fandom Staff know if you wish. If you'd like an unofficial way, then then Fandom Developers Wiki might work out something.

      DetectiveAquamarine wrote: Personally, I really don’t like the Discord! I wanted to like if, I really did, but it just bugged me. The constant swearing was a major factor, as well as the fact one comment could be completely lost in the matter of seconds.

      It was just frustrating for me, and I have no interest in joining again.

      I'm sorry to hear this. Indeed, the Discord server does allow swearing (in moderation), so that can be offensive to some users, and I may bring that up to other staff for a potential solution. I will say, though, that your comment won't usually be lost in a matter of seconds. I said this on the New Year New Wiki thread already, but the server is not that fast. The only places are #general and #sutalk with new episodes. Otherwise, the server is similar to Article Comments and Forum threads being lost to time, which is inevitable.

      SaltyPearl7152 wrote: >anyone (over 13) can edit

      unrelated but this law is a violation of freedom and should be gone, i should be free to parent my children how i want and i don't exactly want to raise sheltered snowflakes so they'll be on the internet if i say they will

      I am aware of the science as to why this law exists, but talking about it would require me to dump my uni textbooks to perfectly explain why those under 13 aren't supposed to be on data-collecting websites. This is not to say your parenting isn't going to be good, but we cannot ignore the reason why this exists as a law in the U.S. (the law targets stupid people which there are too many of, not people like you).

      It's just another example where there are many reasons and perspectives to consider, and decisions are then seen in a new light.

        Loading editor
    • DetectiveAquamarine wrote:
      Personally, I really don’t like the Discord! I wanted to like if, I really did, but it just bugged me. The constant swearing was a major factor, as well as the fact one comment could be completely lost in the matter of seconds.

      It was just frustrating for me, and I have no interest in joining again.

      That's how I feel about Discord - I've given in a couple of goes but it's just so messy!  It's just not for me.  I'm trying to start more discussions on the forums instead 🙂

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    • DetectiveAquamarine wrote: Personally, I really don’t like the Discord! I wanted to like if, I really did, but it just bugged me. The constant swearing was a major factor, as well as the fact one comment could be completely lost in the matter of seconds.

      It was just frustrating for me, and I have no interest in joining again.

      We are sorry you felt that way, but it is no different to the wiki chat that used to exist; users chat, users talk. If you talk with the sole intention that everyone will answer you then there's an unrealistic situation you have put yourself in. The server has over 2000 members now, closer to 3000, and it's to be expected that some times will be busier than others.


      As for the swearing, we're all teenagers/young adults. There are some users who do not swear in the server that we know of, so I know its possible to integrate even if you disapprove of such language use.

        Loading editor
    • SaltyPearl7152 wrote: look, do whatever, but please stop essentially insulting me by giving  me absurd "alternatives"

      a discord server is not and never will be akin to a comment section

      You are right.


      It is superior in all forms, and I'm willing to expand on that should you require any more information.

        Loading editor
    • SaltyPearl7152 wrote: 4. many people (such as myself) already use discord for more important things and don't want their server directories clouded with random dribble, which is why i get pretty freaking tired of every website and community spouting JOIN OUR DISCORD. no, the answer is and will forever and always be no, and i would appreciate if community websites would keep the community TO THAT WEBSITE

      You can join more than one server.

      This entire conversation is now null and void. I ask that no more staff engage with SaltyPearl's comments, as this is now very clear that they're acting on a selfish motive.

      It appears the issue is not that they disapprove of using Discord as a platform. It is that they feel that they do not want to add this server to a list of what can only be described as "more important matters". This is a personal choice. It has nothing to do with how we have constructed the Discord, or how people behave in there, or even their previous experiences in the server itself. You are asking for one thing because you feel it will benefit you, and you're using the other users who perhaps do not want to use discord at all, to back yourself up. This is wrong. We will be willing to listen to users who are genuinely finding themselves cut off from contributing to a community, but not those who are being hypocritical.

      What is defined as "more important"? It varies from person to person. To the wiki staff, this server is their "important matter". To you, it is clearly not. But you have other servers which you feel obligated to talk in. This does not invalidate the importance of the server or how the staff see it. To do so I find incredibly insulting. If you do not want to join the server, and cut yourself off more from the community (which is now growing, many users are not just wikia users), then that is fine. But it is your conscious decision to do so, and it's not like you do not have a choice.

      For the others users who find themselves unable to use discord as an alternative, we will still be open to your suggestions and feedback, provided it is civil. This is not a thread for abuse, and it will not be tolerated.

        Loading editor
    • SaltyPearl7152 wrote: honestly tell me one thing that's good about those, because i can tell you what's bad

      comments - as simple as scrolling to the bottom of a page and saying something

      forums - have to be titled, require pointless categorization, you have to scroll through like 50 things to get to them, and to add insult to injury give you these annoying notification blurbs

      discord - now this one, ohhhhh this one, where do i even begin

      1. requires another account

      2. completely different formatting

      3. NOTHING like wiki comments, the comparison is simply absurd

      4. many people (such as myself) already use discord for more important things and don't want their server directories clouded with random dribble, which is why i get pretty freaking tired of every website and community spouting JOIN OUR DISCORD. no, the answer is and will forever and always be no, and i would appreciate if community websites would keep the community TO THAT WEBSITE

      to be fair at least the forums are ACTUALLY THE WIKI, perhaps some link cleanup and reformatting could make them a more enjoyable experience, at the moment they're just a sort of annoying feature that's overshadowed by the vastly superior comment sections, but could be useful with some work, the discord server is what i'm frankly insulted by the implication of replacing comments, that's like taking a kid's phone and saying "oh just talk to your friends at school", complete and utter bullcrap

      For the last time, the wiki site staff are just ENCOURAGING you to join, in other words, it's not compulsory at all. And in other other words, if you think that the staff are "spamminh" you to join the Discord, that's YOUR problem.

      I ask the staff to close this thread because of it is completely void and the discussion is out of place and should be taken to a different thread.

        Loading editor
    • >2. You don't have to categorise forum posts. The benefit categorisation gives is making it easier for people to search by topic. Your thread could be isolated if you wish. It's not hard to categorise threads anyway, from my observation.

      really? i didn't know that, that's actually pretty helpful

      as for everything else, i'm just simply stating i'm tired of websites promoting discord servers, it gets on my nerves when people overcomplicate things, i'm bad enough at organization myself and scattering things across a multitude of websites only worsens that

      and yes, i disagree with it as a platform in this situation, because i disagree with incessant cross-website linkage when not needed, and i'm tired of you passive agressively acting like overcomplication is superior to easily accessible simplicity, look its annoying to  moderate i get that, but you can at least admit that yes it is way more easily accessible (and that may in fact be what makes moderating it so hard, so yeah)

      (p.s. for anyone who was wondering my pronouns are she and her, thanks)

        Loading editor
    • i'm really just saying complexity does not equate to superiority, yes more features is a good thing, but not when they aren't readily accessible and easy for users to manage

        Loading editor
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