Memin' Universe SU wrote:
I'm just simply telling you to stop talking about it
You can always just stop commenting on this page. Isn't it already implied they had sex anyway? How would they have Steven otherwise?
You can always just stop commenting on this page. Isn't it already implied they had sex anyway? How would they have Steven otherwise?
The issue under dispute is what kind of person was Pink Diamond. Part of that issue is Pink's motivations for starting the war against herself in the first place. Some people believe that she did it out of a desire to protect the life on Earth out of love for its beauty. Others argue otherwise. Pink's feelings towards humans are a key point in determining why Pink did the things she did. They're going to be part of the argument.
Hey Um, don't take this the wrong way, but you're being a bit too emotional about this. Honestly, it's a tv show. People are gonna have their own views and stuff. Soe may not look deeper into the characters or story or even meaning, but getting worked up about it won't help. I'm new signing on, but I've seen the posts about Pink. Some are quite shocking. I myself don't really like her, but the reasons have been stated why. I think you need to calm down though, and just let others like what they like. As for this user, I do kind of get what they mean about her. I don't think they are condoning her actions. Honestly though, I think everyone needs to calm down. This is why Steven Universe fandoms don't have the best rep.
Nobody ever says, "it's just a kids show" when talking about Avatar, The Last Airbender. It was undeniably a kids show but no one denies that it was s story with considerable depth and meaning. Steven Universe delves into issues of abuse, acceptance, LGBTQ rights, war, genocide, atrocities, etc. It isn't Strawberry Shortcake. Some fans will just take it at face value and leave it at that. Others will want to plumb those depths.
It would just be nice if maybe didn't sound like you know better than those who don't agree with you or say soemthing that might go against your opinion. Words have powerful meanings and hoenstly, from what I think you're saying, you're either impying I don't think the show is smart or maybe think I'm simple. I don't like Pink, and agree with what others say, but honestly what you just said irks me the wrong way. Maybe it's because I'm overly sensitive though. Like I said though, it would be nice if you didn't say things in kind of such a superior way I guess. Though posting this, I may have dug my own grave lol.
It would just be nice if maybe didn't sound like you know better than those who don't agree with you or say soemthing that might go against your opinion. Words have powerful meanings and hoenstly, from what I think you're saying, you're either impying I don't think the show is smart or maybe think I'm simple. I don't like Pink, and agree with what others say, but honestly what you just said irks me the wrong way. Maybe it's because I'm overly sensitive though. Like I said though, it would be nice if you didn't say things in kind of such a superior way I guess. Though posting this, I may have dug my own grave lol.
That's how debate works. You put forth your arguments for your position while answering your opponent's counter-arguments. That's how we resolve disputes now that rapiers and dueling pistols have been outlawed. No one is compelled to enter the fray but if you choose to step up and put your ideas on the line you'd best make sure you have sound arguments and the facts to back them up. Debate is a crucible designed to burn away bad ideas in the fires of reason.
It would just be nice if maybe didn't sound like you know better than those who don't agree with you or say soemthing that might go against your opinion. Words have powerful meanings and hoenstly, from what I think you're saying, you're either impying I don't think the show is smart or maybe think I'm simple. I don't like Pink, and agree with what others say, but honestly what you just said irks me the wrong way. Maybe it's because I'm overly sensitive though. Like I said though, it would be nice if you didn't say things in kind of such a superior way I guess. Though posting this, I may have dug my own grave lol.
But even in a debate class, one has to be civil. And while things do get heated, the group has to learn to calm down. It's one thing to show your arguments. It's anohter to act like your opinion is absolute or that one who differs from you is wrong or stupid. Basically, acting superior to others. That's not something that's good for this thread or debate groups. Make your opinion known and of course state why you don't agree, but acting suprior is not really cool. Since you didn't really argue what I said, I'm thinking what I said coul be right.
Also, you say make an example of something. Okay, you say she's a villain, but the creators have said the show has no villains. You say the characters are deep, then this means she's deeper than what I've seen from either arguments. As for her having a good side, her reacton at realizing her envasion would desotry Earth and take all that life, show's that to a degree she cares about the people. She pleaded for the Diamonds to spare the planet. However, then you show her beginning a war and even acting as both Rose and Pink. That shows her bad side and selfish side as she could've stopped the war.
But even in a debate class, one has to be civil. And while things do get heated, the group has to learn to calm down. It's one thing to show your arguments. It's anohter to act like your opinion is absolute or that one who differs from you is wrong or stupid. Basically, acting superior to others. That's not something that's good for this thread or debate groups. Make your opinion known and of course state why you don't agree, but acting suprior is not really cool. Since you didn't really argue what I said, I'm thinking what I said coul be right.
And when have I been uncivil? When have I done anything other than support my case with rational argument and citations from the source material? When have I made any claims that my opinions are absolute? When have I made any claims about my opinions whatsoever? When have I stated that disagreement with me is wrong or stupid? In what way am I acting superior?
But even in a debate class, one has to be civil. And while things do get heated, the group has to learn to calm down. It's one thing to show your arguments. It's anohter to act like your opinion is absolute or that one who differs from you is wrong or stupid. Basically, acting superior to others. That's not something that's good for this thread or debate groups. Make your opinion known and of course state why you don't agree, but acting suprior is not really cool. Since you didn't really argue what I said, I'm thinking what I said coul be right.
I already said I may be being to sensitive or misinterpreting. Clarification was all I needed. Anyway, I did make a claim on Pink. You said add evidence and I did. I'm not the type just to say something without proof. I've been in English as well and know I need evidence for my opinion and I give one about Pink not being either or.
Okay, you say she's a villain, but the creators have said the show has no villains. You say the characters are deep, then this means she's deeper than what I've seen from either arguments. As for her having a good side, her reacton at realizing her envasion would desotry Earth and take all that life, show's that to a degree she cares about the people. She pleaded for the Diamonds to spare the planet. However, then you show her beginning a war and even acting as both Rose and Pink. That shows her bad side and selfish side as she could've stopped the war.
Okay, you say she's a villain, but the creators have said the show has no villains. You say the characters are deep, then this means she's deeper than what I've seen from either arguments. As for her having a good side, her reacton at realizing her envasion would desotry Earth and take all that life, show's that to a degree she cares about the people. She pleaded for the Diamonds to spare the planet. However, then you show her beginning a war and even acting as both Rose and Pink. That shows her bad side and selfish side as she could've stopped the war.
I'm not the only one who say's she's a villain. Both Rebecca Sugar and Ian Jones-Quarty have stated that she's a villain and a really awful person in this podcast. Skip ahead to the 10:00 minute mark to hear it. You don't have to take my word for it.
As for Pink realizing her invasion would destroy the Earth, how would she not realize it? She was a Diamond. She was there when Yellow Diamond ordered the destruction of organic life on the Jungle Moon planet. Pink was well aware of what getting her own colony would mean yet she pestered the other Diamonds for a colony anyway. If life was so precious to her why would she want a colony at all? She certainly appeared to have no problem killing both gems and humans in a fake thousand year war against herself. Then she faked her own death in that war. What did she think the other Diamonds would do in response to that? She's was a Diamond herself so she knew the death of a Diamond would call down the full wrath of the Empire. Peridot even pointed out how Pink's little plan accomplished absolutely nothing other than sealing Earth's fate.
And when all the damage had been done she did nothing to atone for any of it. She continued to lie to the surviving Crystal Gems about everything right up to the day of her death. She left nothing behind for them or Steven explaining the truth of everything they went through.
And let's not forget Spinel and Pink Pearl.
Okay, you say she's a villain, but the creators have said the show has no villains. You say the characters are deep, then this means she's deeper than what I've seen from either arguments. As for her having a good side, her reacton at realizing her envasion would desotry Earth and take all that life, show's that to a degree she cares about the people. She pleaded for the Diamonds to spare the planet. However, then you show her beginning a war and even acting as both Rose and Pink. That shows her bad side and selfish side as she could've stopped the war.
As for Pink realizing her invasion would destroy the Earth, how would she not realize it? She was a Diamond. She was there when Yellow Diamond ordered the destruction of organic life on the Jungle Moon planet. Pink was well aware of what getting her own colony would mean yet she pestered the other Diamonds for a colony anyway. If life was so precious to her why would she want a colony at all? She certainly appeared to have no problem killing both gems and humans in a fake thousand year war against herself. Then she faked her own death in that war. What did she think the other Diamonds would do in response to that? She's was a Diamond herself so she knew the death of a Diamond would call down the full wrath of the Empire. Peridot even pointed out how Pink's little plan accomplished absolutely nothing other than sealing Earth's fate.
And when all the damage had been done she did nothing to atone for any of it. She continued to lie to the surviving Crystal Gems about everything right up to the day of her death. She left nothing behind for them or Steven explaining the truth of everything they went through.
And let's not forget Spinel and Pink Pearl.
They never said she was a villain. Rebecca did say that she an awful person though, and Ian said how he liked the trope of a villain mistreating their subordinate. At best, rebecca described rose as a morally grey character.
Pink may have been on the planet, but she seemed to have no idea as to what was actually happening or the process.
She may have wanted a colony, but she seemed to have no idea about the actual consequences of what colony building does to a planet.
no problem with humans dying? Well then, I guess she should have just let the colonizing process continue so that humans became extinct. And it's also worth remembering that the reason she got gems involved (when first going it alone with PEarl) was to free them as well.
as with faking her death, it was made clear that the only way to end the war and free the earth was if pink diamond was to disappear. It also seemed in a single pale rose that Rose didn't think the diamonds truly cared about her, so she had no idea their they would have reacted the way they did.
And peridot never said that her actions sealed the earth's fate, only that it delayed what she thought was the inevitable.
And what do you mean she didn't do anything to atone for it? What about collecting the corrupted? Garnet even mentioned that Rose tried to heal them. What more could she have done?
As for continuing to lie to Garnet and Amethyst, I'm sure that would have been an interesting conversation if she ever told the truth, especially from what we saw their reactions were and their treatment of Rose's memory.
But yes, she should have told STeven at least the truth, or at least given him some video that explained everything, but probably thought it was best to leave the past buried. And also would have thought that her son would have despised her for who she was and what she did.
But yeah, what she did to SPinel was the least excusable. I don't think she meant to hurt Spinel though, it just never occurred to her that she had her own feelings. Course that doesn't excuse what she did.
As for Pink Pearl, it's worth remembering that Pink didn't intentionally hurt her, and that experience effected her so much that it changed her personality. And if you think that Pink still shouldn't be forgiven for that, just remember that Steven ended up doing far worst to a gem during his pink phase (cough! Jasper), yet I'm sure that most fans have forgiven him.
"They never said she was a villain. Rebecca did say that she an awful person though, and Ian said how he liked the trope of a villain mistreating their subordinate. At best, rebecca described rose as a morally grey character."
Pink may have been on the planet, but she seemed to have no idea as to what was actually happening or the process.
She may have wanted a colony, but she seemed to have no idea about the actual consequences of what colony building does to a planet.
no problem with humans dying? Well then, I guess she should have just let the colonizing process continue so that humans became extinct. And it's also worth remembering that the reason she got gems involved (when first going it alone with PEarl) was to free them as well.
as with faking her death, it was made clear that the only way to end the war and free the earth was if pink diamond was to disappear. It also seemed in a single pale rose that Rose didn't think the diamonds truly cared about her, so she had no idea their they would have reacted the way they did.
And peridot never said that her actions sealed the earth's fate, only that it delayed what she thought was the inevitable.
And what do you mean she didn't do anything to atone for it? What about collecting the corrupted? Garnet even mentioned that Rose tried to heal them. What more could she have done?
As for continuing to lie to Garnet and Amethyst, I'm sure that would have been an interesting conversation if she ever told the truth, especially from what we saw their reactions were and their treatment of Rose's memory.
But yes, she should have told STeven at least the truth, or at least given him some video that explained everything, but probably thought it was best to leave the past buried. And also would have thought that her son would have despised her for who she was and what she did.
But yeah, what she did to SPinel was the least excusable. I don't think she meant to hurt Spinel though, it just never occurred to her that she had her own feelings. Course that doesn't excuse what she did.
As for Pink Pearl, it's worth remembering that Pink didn't intentionally hurt her, and that experience effected her so much that it changed her personality. And if you think that Pink still shouldn't be forgiven for that, just remember that Steven ended up doing far worst to a gem during his pink phase (cough! Jasper), yet I'm sure that most fans have forgiven him.
Ian Jones-Quarty specifically said she was a villain. He says that his favorite trope is the villain that treats their subordinates badly and that we learn that Rose was that, meaning a villain that treats her subordinates badly. Squirm all you want but we have a recording of his exact words. And just what part of "really awful person" suggests that she was morally grey? Charles Manson was a really awful person. Was he morally grey?
"Pink may have been on the planet, but she seemed to have no idea as to what was actually happening or the process. She may have wanted a colony, but she seemed to have no idea about the actual consequences of what colony building does to a planet."
How do you know she had no idea of the process? She was a Diamond. Remember what gems are. They have no childhoods. They aren't educated or trained. They pop out of their kindergartens fully developed with all the skills and knowledge they need to take their place in gem society. Pink Diamond knew everything she needed to know to be a Diamond. She was with Yellow Diamond as she was colonizing the Jungle Moon planet. She saw Yellow Diamond specifically order her forces to destroy the organic life on the planet's surface. She wouldn't have gotten a colony unless she convinced White that she knew what to do and was able to do it.
"no problem with humans dying? Well then, I guess she should have just let the colonizing process continue so that humans became extinct. And it's also worth remembering that the reason she got gems involved (when first going it alone with PEarl) was to free them as well."
As opposed to starting a war against herself that raged across the planet for a thousand years killing gems and humans in vast numbers? If she cared so much about humans dying why didn't she simply turn down the colony? No one would have died if she had done that. And freeing the gems wasn't her goal. Securing the planet for herself and her new favorite hobby was her goal. Bizmuth wanted to free the gems and invented a weapon with which to do it. She wanted to take the war to Homeworld and liberate the entire gem race from the rule of the Diamonds but Pink wasn't having any of that. Pink bubbled Bizmuth, hid her in Lion's mane and kept that a secret from the other gems to her grave. Pink Diamond was no liberator.
"as with faking her death, it was made clear that the only way to end the war and free the earth was if pink diamond was to disappear. It also seemed in a single pale rose that Rose didn't think the diamonds truly cared about her, so she had no idea their they would have reacted the way they did."
Pink could have ended the war at any time. She was fighting against herself. All she had to do was have one side surrender to the other. Not hard since she was in command of both sides. As for the other Diamonds not caring, Pink knew better. A Diamond being killed by gems in rebellion is unacceptable to the power structure of the Empire regardless of how they felt about Pink. It's standard politics. You kill a head of state and there will be reprisals.
"And peridot never said that her actions sealed the earth's fate, only that it delayed what she thought was the inevitable."
Peridot: "Well if she wanted to protect it, she did a lousy job! There'd be no Cluster if the Earth had stayed a colony. Now there's no colony, and there's gonna be no Earth, so thank you, Rose Quartz! You doomed the planet!"
"And what do you mean she didn't do anything to atone for it? What about collecting the corrupted? Garnet even mentioned that Rose tried to heal them. What more could she have done?"
Well, she could have actually spent time trying to find a cure for corruption rather than traipsing around the planet turning it into her personal harem. She could have told the Crystal Gems the truth about who she was and why the war was fought. She could have freed Bizmuth, explained everything to her and then apologized for bubbling and abandoning her. She could have sent a message to Spinel rescinding her order to stand still in the garden allowing Spinel to leave the garden and make a new life for herself. She could have released Pearl from her gag order. She could have left an apology to Pink Pearl. She could have left behind a message for Steven after her death that explained everything to him about her history and his heritage as a Diamond. That would have been a good start.
"As for continuing to lie to Garnet and Amethyst, I'm sure that would have been an interesting conversation if she ever told the truth, especially from what we saw their reactions were and their treatment of Rose's memory."
It would have been an interesting conversation. Also a necessary one. It would have saved the surviving Crystal Gems millennia of trauma. Pink took the people who loved her and dragged them through hell and then left them there when she died. The Crystal Gems would have lived their lives knowing the truth rather than remain trapped in Pink's web of lies. It would have been painful but they would have been free.
"But yes, she should have told STeven at least the truth, or at least given him some video that explained everything, but probably thought it was best to leave the past buried. And also would have thought that her son would have despised her for who she was and what she did."
And look how well that turned out. Pink never made a descent, compassionate decision in her life and left a wake of ruin behind her to prove it. And ultimately it accomplished nothing because the truth came out eventually and Steven does despise her. Deservedly so given what she did to everyone in her life.
"But yeah, what she did to SPinel was the least excusable. I don't think she meant to hurt Spinel though, it just never occurred to her that she had her own feelings. Course that doesn't excuse what she did."
Then stop trying to excuse it.
"As for Pink Pearl, it's worth remembering that Pink didn't intentionally hurt her, and that experience effected her so much that it changed her personality. And if you think that Pink still shouldn't be forgiven for that, just remember that Steven ended up doing far worst to a gem during his pink phase (cough! Jasper), yet I'm sure that most fans have forgiven him."
And there it is. The abuse apologist's refrain. "I didn't mean to hurt you." The fact remains that Pink Pearl was hurt. She was hurt badly and for thousands of years. If Pink couldn't treat Spinel like a person what makes you think she'd treat Pink Pearl like one? Pearls are purpose built slaves. They're property. They have a facility where they're made, maintained, repaired and is stocked with more accessories than a Barbie doll. It's no surprise that Pink would use hers as a convenient punching bag.